Alignment-Is It Archaic?

[Legacy_UrkOfGreyhawk]

               Is alignment essential to RPGs? Of course not. But is it essential to DnD? Absolutely. Alignment is a central game mechanic in Dungeons and Dragons. Remove alignment and the game stops being DnD.

And before some barracks room lawyer points out that alignment HAS been removed from 4th edition, that only supports my belief. IMO what Hasbro is selling in 4th edition isn't really DnD any more than this crap is...
http://www.toplessro...d_of_the_co.php
http://www.toplessro...s_the_sodas.php
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_wyldhunt1]

               Ooo...
Sign me up for a case of Illithid Brain Juice!
Tasty!
</sarcasm>

I tend to think of alignment as a guideline more than a rule, really.
As has been pointed out above:
History is written by the victor. During the war, both sides believe they are doing the correct thing.
I prefer to use alignment as a gauge of how the character sees themselves rather than how the world sees them. Someone who believes that they commit an absolute evil and chaotic act will be chaotic evil... Years later when they realize that there are much worse things than rebelling against the local corporations by stealing candy bars, they may become neutral and decide they don't really care. They just want to be left alone to raise a family in peace.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Removing alignment has been an off/on D&D House rule in gaming since the late 70's; closey tied to the birth of AD&D, I believe. Always detested it; always will....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Remove alignment from the game's algorithm and spells like Protection from Alignment, Magic Circle and smiting will be replaced by...

....

....

what?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

Remove alignment from the game's algorithm and spells like Protection from Alignment, Magic Circle and smiting will be replaced by....

what?

Opposing forces that intend to harm the caster, and some common sense....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Sethan_1]

               

Elhanan wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...

Remove alignment from the game's algorithm and spells like Protection from Alignment, Magic Circle and smiting will be replaced by....

what?

Opposing forces that intend to harm the caster, and some common sense....

...and in NWN, you would code that how?

Alignment is a core part of the D&D system, whatever you think about it in the real world.

In the absence of alignment, what does Protection From Evil do, and how does it differ from Protection From Good?

When a paladin Detects Evil, what happens?  Smite Evil? Holy Aura? (vice-versa for a Blackguard/Anti-paladin)

How about Holy/Unholy word?

When you speak an Alignment language, who understands it?

What does the spell "Undetectable Alignment" do?

What are the effects of a Hallowed/Unhallowed area?

How does Forbiddance work?

In the Evil Domain, what creatures do Unholy Blight and Blasphemy work against?

Who gets to use the Evil Domain?  The Good Domain?

What creatures does a Holy Sword get bonuses against?

If a PC puts on a Helm of Opposite Alignment, what happens?

Who can use a Ring of Ineffable Evil, and who loses a level by putting it on?

What does an Atonement spell do?

Who is able to use a Talisman of Ultimate Evil, and who gets damaged by trying to pick it up?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               If you read back, I was ref PnP; not NWN.

I still hate alignments, and generally play less restricted classes such as Rogue and Ranger to that of Paladin, Monk, etc. The DM's I have seen are also generally blessed with common sense, and the Tech skills to make it easier on everyone for gameplay.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Elhanan wrote...
If you read back, I was ref PnP; not NWN.

I still hate alignments, and generally play less restricted classes such as Rogue and Ranger to that of Paladin, Monk, etc. The DM's I have seen are also generally blessed with common sense, and the Tech skills to make it easier on everyone for gameplay.

There seem to be 2 main considerations for alignment issues... consequence scheme & character building.

TBH, I feel that the alignment "scheme" itself is fine.  It is the implementation that is often suspect.  It is one of the most dynamic features of the game, PnP or otherwise, yet is subject to the subjective whim of a designer to decide what constitutes an effect on alignment.  Good-evil is probably the easiest axis to maintain a consistent interpretation.

Though we would all like alignment to function in a continuum, it just can't... there are clearly defined arithmetic "switches" so factors which effect alignment changes must be just as rigidly defined and implemented so that consequences of those effectors is neither magical nor unpredictable.  Occasionally, a designer will define explicitly that if a character does "Action X" it will skew their alignment by exactly  "Axis amount Y".  But this is more the exception than the rule.  It seems that the Law-Chaos axis is the most difficult for designers to develop some consistency dealing with.  Most of the time, it's a complete surprise when an adjustment occurs on that axis and then only by repeating the incident can the design be recognized by the casual gamer.  Still, I believe the L-C axis can be just as concisely-defined though it may not be as intuitive to do so.

The only alternative would be an alignment system that has none of the static limits, but how that could be implemented is beyond my own expertise of conjecture.  That's where the DM function comes in, I suppose.  Dunno.

Alignment restrictions for class selection in building characters can be easily customized/changed/removed (hence the use of conspicuous alignment managers) so it has never been a detraction during my own gameplay.  I do think it adds a creative dimension, though, one that would dilute the original intent of D&D if removed, for better or worse.

BTW, the term "common sense" is an oxymoron.  Sense is anything but common. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 02 janvier 2012 - 05:52 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

I don't care about alignment. I find it amusing that people debate it over and over and over. I start every new character on any server at true neutral, and let the game engine and the DM's move it where they want. Their changes have absolutely no effect on how I RP my character. That makes it simple for everyone involved.

Until recently, I never played classes in NWN that had alignment restrictions. Those classes just never interested me. There are 23 classes available in NWN, and 13 of them have an alignment restriction of some type. I didn't realize that.

I've been messin' around with the Dwarven Defender class lately, and it irks me that I have to start the character out in a lawful alignment just to play that class. So, from the perspective of character creation, in NWN, alignment is neccessary. Sad but true.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

HipMaestro wrote...
Though we would all like alignment to function in a continuum, it just can't... there are clearly defined arithmetic "switches" so factors which effect alignment changes must be just as rigidly defined and implemented so that consequences of those effectors is neither magical nor unpredictable.  Occasionally, a designer will define explicitly that if a character does "Action X" it will skew their alignment by exactly  "Axis amount Y".  But this is more the exception than the rule.  It seems that the Law-Chaos axis is the most difficult for designers to develop some consistency dealing with.  Most of the time, it's a complete surprise when an adjustment occurs on that axis and then only by repeating the incident can the design be recognized by the casual gamer.  Still, I believe the L-C axis can be just as concisely-defined though it may not be as intuitive to do so.

What is problematic is when varying XP awards are given to different alignment tasks.  This causes metagaming to prefer changing or doing the actions associated with advantageous alignments, rather than roleplaying the given alignment.  For example, saving someone's life only to kill them later is an effect of metagaming and doesn't really demonstrate playing the given alignment.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

WhiZard wrote...
What is problematic is when varying XP awards are given to different alignment tasks.  -clip-

I agree completely, Whizard.  I think that is one of reasons alignment has gotten a bad rap (or rep).  Designers sometimes try to establish an alignment contingency that is logical only to them and perhaps a few other consultants.  The one you have cited is a case in point and one that has NEVER made any sense to me, personally, though I suspect the designer has some important interrelationship in mind when it was implemented. Few of us are mind-readers...  not professionally anyway.

I believe that if there are static and definable values that establish these borders (as there are in the current alignment grid), then the causative factors must be just as objectively defined BEFORE entering any environment that has implemented those shift rules. I have yet to see any consequences, whether it be gaining XP or other rewards, based on values that fall WITHIN an alignment sector, only the general categories (i.e. different consequences for a value of 10 vs one with 20, for instance).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 07 janvier 2012 - 12:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

HipMaestro wrote...
(i.e. different consequences for a value of 10 vs one with 20, for instance).

You inspired me to write an alignment check system.  Works like a skill check, though this is bare bones, and I haven't included the full "skill check" feed back yet.

const int ALIGNMENT_HIGH = 100;
const int ALIGNMENT_MEDIUM = 50;
const int ALIGNMENT_LOW = 0;
const int GOOD_EVIL_AXIS = 1;
const int LAW_CHAOS_AXIS = 2;

int AlignmentCheck(object oPC, int nAlignment = ALIGNMENT_MEDIUM, int nAxis = GOOD_EVIL_AXIS)
{
int nPCAlign = -1;
if(nAxis == LAW_CHAOS_AXIS) nPCAlign = GetFactionAverageLawChaosAlignment(oPC);
if(nAxis == GOOD_EVIL_AXIS) nPCAlign = GetFactionAverageGoodEvilAlignment(oPC);
if(nPCAlign == -1) return -1;
return(abs(nPCAlign - 10 + d20() - nAlignment) <= 10);
}

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Alignment as originally conceived in D&D is NOT roleplay related but indicative to which universal forces your character is aligned. And I prefer to stick with that. I could not care less how this relates to "correct roleplay". BUT if a PC is calling out to the greater forces of the universe for aid... they better understand which team they've been playing for.

Elric's battles with the forces of Law and Chaos were instructive in helping me understand the alignment issue.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 21 janvier 2012 - 10:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sil Songwind]

               No, Alignment is not archaic, only our opinions make us think that.

D&D is about adventure and good vs. evil. It's a fantasy story world we create where good and evil have important factors in the world. Any Storyteller/DM can remove the alignment part, but when we play in the main stories it is an important component.

Others are right in saying that Alignment is a mechanic of the world. Look at the device on the manual of planes from 3.0. Inside the book is the a descriptior of the device and how it works.

There are several issue concerning alignment that interest me.
1)No one considers the historical mindset in relation to alignment. No one considers that historically an insane person would have been seen as possessed where exorcims would be the answer. Over time this changed to a belief in psychology to help. Finally nowadays Pills are the answer.

2)Players prefer to adhere to a modern mindset or to cool ideas
ie; A while back I asked a group of player what alignment a psychotic killer should be. All players answered with "chaotic evil". Than I asked, what if my character is Neutral and has a mental disorder. Players immediately changed opinions. The reason this example is important is because it demonstrates a modern mindset which gets confused with fantasy ideas.

3)People rarely see the RP potential for alignment when it does not meet their criteria.
By this I mean that instead of using the questions as a storyboard to examine the problem, people see it as a hindrance or they complain about it and have trouble with it.