Bard / Arcane Archer Build Advice

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Westan Willows wrote...

@MM If I go With what you suggest

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Wis 8 Int 10 Cha 14 I have 4 skill points at level up.

Right, which is why I said you could then put those 4 last points into Str or Int -- Str gives more damage, Int gives extra skill points.  Could go 14 Str/10 Int, 12 Str/12 Int, or 10 Str/14 Int.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               @Empyre - I'm planning to run your Hin Hero through SoU and HotU, but thanks for the rogue build.

@MrZ - After your comment, I think I'll mix up the pre-epic Bard and AA levels a bit more so that I can keep my skills up.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Westan Willows wrote...

@MM If I go With what you suggest

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Wis 8 Int 10 Cha 14 I have 4 skill points at level up.

Right, which is why I said you could then put those 4 last points into Str or Int -- Str gives more damage, Int gives extra skill points.  Could go 14 Str/10 Int, 12 Str/12 Int, or 10 Str/14 Int.

 Ah I see. I would go 12/12 put the skill point into search.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               Hi all

I've used the different suggestions and put together a variant on Piercing Ballad that weaves the Bard and AA levels together.  No more than two AA levels pass before a Bard level to help more even skill development.  I know that I'm losing some AB, but don't really mind.

I just don't get how feats work at Epic Levels, despite reading up on the wiki.  Bard is supposed to be every third level, and AA also every third with bonus feats every 4 from AA level 14.  

Comments welcome!

Adjusted "Piercing Ballad": Bard 21 / Arcane Archer 19

Race: Elf
Alignement: Any/Non-Lawful

Playable 1-40 PvM

Abilities:

Str: 10
Dex: 18 (31)   {to bump up dex based skills}
Con: 12
Wis: 8
Int: 14  
Cha: 14 (16)

Level Progression:

1: Bard 1: Point Blank Shot
2: Bard 2
3: Bard 3: WF: Longbow
4: Bard 4: Cha +1 (15)
5: Bard 5
6: Bard 6: Lingering Song
7: Bard 7  Cha +1 (16)
8: Bard 8:
9: Bard 9: Extend Spell
10: Arcane Archer 1: (Enchant Arrow I)
11: AA 2
12: AA 3: Blind Fight, Dex +1 (19)
13: Bard 10: (Skill dump)
14: AA 4
15: AA 5
16: Bard 11 Dex+1 (20)
17: AA 6: Imp. Crit: Longbow
18: AA 7
19: Bard 12: Called Shot  
20: Bard 13: Dex +1 (21)

Epic Levels:

21: AA 8
22: Bard 14
23: AA 9: EWF: Longbow, (Enchant Arrow V)
24: AA 10: Dex +1 (22)
25: Bard 15: Great Dex I (23)
26: AA 11
27: AA 12: Dex +1 (24)
28: Bard 16
29: Bard 17
30: AA 13
31: Bard 18: Lasting Inspiration <<Requires Perform 25>>
32: AA 14:  Dex +1 (25), Great Dex I' (26)
33: AA 15: Epic Prowess
34: Bard 19
35: AA 16:
36: AA 17: Dex +1 (27)
37: Bard 20
38: AA 18: Great Dex II (28), Great Dex III' (29)
39: AA 19: (Enchant Arrow X)
40: Bard 21: Great Dex IV (30), Dex +1 (31)

Prime feats (marked ') are the AA bonus feats.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par brendonwp, 17 janvier 2014 - 04:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               Every build gets a general feat at level 1 and every 3rd level, so the feats are at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, and 39. Bards get bonus feats at every 3rd level after 20, so 23rd, 26th, 29th, 32nd, 35th, ans 38th levels of Bard, not levels of the build. AA gets bonus feats at the 14th, 18th, 22nd, 26th, and 30th levels of AA, not levels of the build. Since the build doesn't have 23 levels of bard, you don't get any Bard bonus feats, but the 19 levels of AA do give you 2 AA bonus feats.

The odd number of DEX doesn't do you any good, even with skills, so you're better off getting Armor Skin in place of one of those Great DEX feats (+2 AC).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Empyre65, 18 janvier 2014 - 06:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               First, you'll need to redo your feats for the reasons Empyre said.

You'll want to get Curse Song -- drop Lingering Song for it.  You'll also want 12 Bard/8 AA pre-epic or else you'll lose an extra AB -- skip the bard level at 20 and delay it until epics.

You also need Bard 20 or higher to pick up Lasting Inspiration.

In Epic levels you'll get 9 feats total -- Lasting Inspiration, EWF, EP, and Great Dex VI are what you can get.  You only have 8 feats marked down due to the misunderstanding at the moment.

I'd also suggest putting points into Charisma at levels 20 and 24 -- you won't need it until then and you'll get an extra AB/AC from the Dex earlier.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               Reminds me of a friend who didn't understand 'caster level'. What spells and skills are you going for?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               Empyre and MM, thanks I'll update the build using your comments.

@MM - I'm interested that you recommend Curse Song over Lingering Song.  Curse Song works really well for my melee bard in the OC.  Isn't is very limited in range, or does it have the same area of effect as ordinary Bard Song?  I couldn't find this from nwnwiki.  
Lasting Inspiration stacks with Lingering Song, so I wouldn't want to miss out on it.  I'm inclined to use it in place of Great Dexterity I.

@WW - I've never had access to the full range of bard spells before. Ghostly Visage, War Cry and Greater Dispelling are the ones that seem most useful at the higher levels.  But I am going for higher Cha more to boost Bard Song than the spells.  

As far as skills go, I'm trying to max out Perform, and have decent Spellcraft, UMD and Tumble.  I want to stretch to put a couple of points into skills like Persuade, Open Lock and Disable Device so that with items and Bard Song boost I can use them too.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par brendonwp, 18 janvier 2014 - 04:29 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

brendonwp wrote...

Curse Song works really well for my melee bard in the OC.  Isn't is very limited in range, or does it have the same area of effect as ordinary Bard Song?  I couldn't find this from nwnwiki.

Same area of effect -- it won't work if you're sniping enemies from max range but anything that is semi close will get hit.

brendonwp wrote...

Lasting Inspiration stacks with Lingering Song, so I wouldn't want to miss out on it.  I'm inclined to use it in place of Great Dexterity I.

Lingering Song adds 30 seconds at all points -- this is useful before you have Lasting Inspiration since it adds 30 seconds to 60 seconds which is a 50% increase.  It's not useful once you have Lasting Inspiration since it adds 30 seconds to 600 seconds which is a 5% increase.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               That's good to know. Quick question, the Piercing Ballad build
has Lasting Inspiration at Bard L20 but that is not a feat level as I understand?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               If Bard 20 falls on 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, or 39 then you get a general feat which is used for Lasting Inspiration.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               OK, I think I understand feat placement now! Here is what I hope is the final build.  I've brought in Curse Song, moved Lingering Song later, moved Called Shot in place of Great Dex I, and brought in Armor Skin.  

Also, since I don't have Weapon Finesse I've swopped Int and Str scores to favour Str.  I'm going to rely on high dexterity, Bard Song and items to pump my skills.  

Race: Elf
Alignment: Any/Non-Lawful

Playable 1-40 PvM

Abilities:

Str: 14
Dex: 18 (30)   {to bump up dex based skills}
Con: 12
Wis: 8
Int: 10  
Cha: 14 (16)

Level Progression:


1: Bard 1: Point Blank shot
2: Bard 2
3: Bard 3: WF: Longbow
4: Bard 4: Dex +1 (19)
5: Bard 5
6: Bard 6: Curse Song
7: Bard 7
8: Bard 8: Dex +1 (20)
9: Bard 9: Extend Spell
10: Arcane Archer 1: (Enchant Arrow I)
11: AA 2
12: AA 3: Blind Fight, Dex +1 (21)
13: Bard 10: (Skill dump)
14: AA 4
15: AA 5: Imp. Crit: Longbow
16: Bard 11: Dex +1 (22)
17: AA 6
18: Bard 12: Lingering Song
19: AA 7
20: AA 8: Cha +1 (15)

Epic Levels:

21: Bard 13: EWF: Longbow
22: AA 9: (Enchant Arrow V)
23: AA 10
24: Bard 14: Called Shot, Cha +1 (16)
25: Bard 15
26: Bard 16
27: Bard 17: Great Dex I (23)
28: Bard 18: Dex +1 (24)
29: Bard 19
30: Bard 20: Lasting Inspiration
31: AA 11
32: AA 12: Dex +1 (25)
33: AA 13: Epic Prowess
34: AA 14: Great Dex II' (26)
35: AA 15
36: Bard 21: Dex +1, Great Dex III (28)
37: AA 16
38: AA 17
39: AA 18: Great Dex IV' (29), Armor Skin  
40: AA 19: Dex +1 (30) (Enchant Arrow X)

Priority Skills: Perform (maxed), Spellcraft, Concentration (last two have low ability scores)

Other important skills: Persuade, Tumble, UMD (high ability scores)

Skills to simply open (boost with items): Open Lock, Disable Device, Search
               
               

               

                     Modifié par brendonwp, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               Quick Summary of Skills as I've estimated:

Total Points: 172
                        
Perform   Spellcraft   Concentration   Tumble   UMD   Persuade   Open lock   Disable device   Search
Cha      Int           Con                Dex     Cha   Cha          Dex          Int                   Int

43         21           19                  39        19     19            4              2                     2
Modified:
45         25           20                  43         21     21           6              2                     2

Bard Song adds up to +10 to skills


Edit: The modified skill calculation doesn't take into account the increase in Cha (+1) and Dex (+6) over the course of the build.  Next time I'll use the existing spreadsheet from the Vault to calc all this!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par brendonwp, 19 janvier 2014 - 03:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               You'll want to take your last Bard level at level 37+ so you can get at least 40 ranks in Tumble -- right now you're losing out on 1 AC by only have 39 (only base ranks count for AC).

I also seriously think you should drop Lingering Song completely which also nets you another AB from Great Dex (move Called Shot in pre-epic).  Generally speaking, if you're taking a non-epic feat in epic levels you're doing something very wrong.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               If you do what MagicalMaster said, you could then start with 17 DEX and still end up with 30. That would give you 3 more skill points to spend at character creation. Put them on INT, and take 1 from STR to make STR 13 and INT 14, which will give you 2 more full skills. Search and Spot are handy to have in Sands of Fate, and Spot is a class skill for AA.

The modified UMD needs to be a multiple of 5 because values in between are not useful. I would swap Blind Fight and Curse Song, which would require moving Bard from level 13 to level 12.

Another possibility would be to drop Improved Critical instead of Lingering Song. In that case, I would take Blind Fight at 6, Lingering Song at 12, Curse Song at 15, and Called Shot at 18, which would require you to take Bard at levels 12 and 15 instead of 13 and 16.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Empyre65, 20 janvier 2014 - 04:15 .