Author Topic: The Expansion is Stupid  (Read 968 times)

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

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The Expansion is Stupid
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2011, 01:33:37 am »


               I'm about 2 hours in and in spite of the bugs and typos its awesome.



TR
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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The Expansion is Stupid
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2011, 02:01:42 am »


               Thanks. I only hope it won't go to heavy on puzzle... ;-)
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Luspr

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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2011, 12:29:58 pm »


               

olivier leroux wrote...
Darkness over Daggerford was not made by Bioware either. I doubt it was planned as an expansion, more likely as a Premium Module, and the Premium Modules - surprise, surprise - are mostly created by fans who got hired by Bioware because Bioware realized how much potential there is in fan-made modules. And obviously, you too, prefer a canceled, quasi fan-made Premium module like Darkness over Daggerford over the official NWN expansion that you deem 'stupid'.

I can speak with a certain degree of authority on this subject ... ':whistle:'

Daggerford is a fan created mod, which would have been a premium if the programme hadn't got cancelled on us. The input from Bioware is very nearly zero (I think there was one core storyline adaptation* which came from Rob Bartel which carried over into the released version).

I also just have to mention the fact that I have a bit of a soft spot for SoU, I think Floodgate did a decent job with it really. It's not perfect by any means, but some of its imperfections make it a little bit more enjoyable.

* making Astriel more central to the story
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Luspr, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:31 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2011, 05:08:10 pm »


               

Elton John is dead wrote...

Darkness over Daggerford made by Ossian Studios and backed by Bioware is
pretty good. I wouldn't consider it a community module and it actually
beats the expansions for NWN. It's how NWN should have been.


Although it may be backed by Bioware, like all the Premium Modules (which DoD is NOT - since the program was dropped by Atari before it could be released), IS a community module. It was designed by people that got there start in the Community and 90% of its content belongs to the folks at DLA - a COMMUNITY group turned pro.

Elton John is dead wrote...

No and I don't care. They're made by fans not Bioware and each are different from NWN's campaign. The one I did play was called Good Vs Evil III which had no story but had you fighting in wars and building your army. That doesn't sound like NWN to me. It's just been build with the fantastic aurora toolset.


How can you trash an entire 10 years worth of work based on a sampling of the hundreds of modules available on the Vault? Sure some are terrible, others are mediocre, but many more are great and definitely worth a look. FYI, many of those Premium modules - Witches Wake, Kingmaker, etc. - were available for free on the Vault long before Bioware got involved with them.

Just a parting tip - know your facts before you post something. Although the Bioware Social Site may be new, the NWN Community has been around a long time...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_AndarianTD

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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2011, 06:25:15 pm »


               

Elton John is dead wrote...

No and I don't care. They're made by fans not Bioware and each are different from NWN's campaign. The one I did play was called Good Vs Evil III which had no story but had you fighting in wars and building your army. That doesn't sound like NWN to me. It's just been build with the fantastic aurora toolset.


Wow. So you think you're in a position to judge the NWN Modding Community on the basis of one mod picked at random -- clearly without any knowledge or understanding at all of the many genres that have been covered by the thousands of mods that have been developed for it?

Let me educate you just a bit. All the entries in the "Good vs. Evil" series are what are known as "capture the flag" mods. They say so right on the download page under "Category." "Capture the flag" is a game genre that is explicitly designed for action and combat strategy rather than for story, as opposed to the many other story-oriented module categories that are available on the Vault. Had you bothered to look, you would have seen that these include, for example, "City Adventure," "Mountain Adventure," "Roleplay," "Dramatic," "Romance," and so on.

The fact of the matter is that the NWN community is LOADED with "fan developed" and story-oriented works whose quality frequently exceeds that of the original Bioware campaigns. That community has such a rich diversity of available works, in fact, that some of us have created a group called the Academy for Modding Excellence (or AME) to give out annual awards for excellence in developing them. In addition to "Action" modules like GVE III, the categories for which we have given awards include "Best Storyelling Module," "Best Roleplay Module," and "Best P&P Conversion Module."

If you really want to see what kind of top-notch story-oriented game modules are available in the NWN community, then I suggest that you check out the AME's NWN Awards Pages (complete with finalist and winner videos) for the last several years. Try Almraiven or Shadewood, Citadel, The Aielund Saga, or (if I may be forgiven the immodesty) Sanctum of the Archmage before you judge an entire modding community on the basis of one work -- which, while being very good for what it is, is largely atypical of the rest of that community.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_AndarianTD

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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2011, 06:38:18 pm »


               

olivier leroux wrote...

jmlzemaggo wrote...
Isn't "Dark Waters 1 - Highcastle Island" a NWN 2 module?
Is there an NWN 1 around?


There's an unsupported protoytpe version for NWN and now that I've given up all hope on being able to play and enjoy NWN2 custom modules I'm about to play it, too. '^_^'


The NWN2 version of Dark Waters 1 is fantastic, and won the AME Golden Dragon Award for Best NWN2 Adventure Module of 2007.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Eternal Phoenix

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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2011, 07:21:39 pm »


               

jmlzemaggo wrote...

I won't discuss the tech side of NWN. I could make like anyone else a fine game engine like the aurora IF I was ever interested in working in the computer business.
Which I'm not.
Nothing surprising in it, it's a 1+1 situation.
Every one of us is the best at what he does best for a living.
I'm much more impressed by amateurs spending years of their life to create stories for fun and sharing.
I know plenty of NWN community modules which are not about fighting only.
But feelings... and a bit of fighting.
Maybe there is one for you there. Not you only. Your only call.
You can live without it, that's for sure.


Stop with the riddles Sir Mage, I already told you how I like Daggerford and how I am NOT playing community modules.


HipMaestro wrote...

RE: Merchant Availability in SoU

Elton John is dead wrote...
There are three in Chapter I if I recall. Two in the village and one in the forest. The interlude contains only two merchants, the halfing's reaction to me was unfavorable and she was charging the highest healing potions at 700 gold each and the heal potion at 4000 gold. Same goes for the lizard guy. As a fighter, I leveled up with skills I thought would be useful for a fighter, not appraise or craft. In the NWN campaign, some merchants have a favorable reaction to me.

Farghan the Herbalist, Hilltop West
Fiona the Smith, Hilltop West
Szaren the Red Wizard, Hilltop West (after quest complete)
Torias the Black Market Halfling, Halfing Camp Hilltop East
The Hermit, High Forest (also recharges items for a fee)

That makes five.  Considering I haven't played SoU in about a year even I am surprised the grey matter is functioning well enough to remember such trivia.

I believe you have located the other 4 in the balance of the campaign

Yes, SoU, just like the OC and HotU, uses the Appraise skill to adjust buy/sell prices.  SoU is more realistic about loot, IMO, in that gold is not simply spread out all over creation.  Economics is a more recognizable commodity in SoU than either the OC or HotU.  SoU is more typical of a module that doesn't simply remove the economic facet of the game by spawning ridiculous amounts of loot.  I mean, why not just spawn 100K gold on the PC during creation? It would reduce the needless tedium of clicking on every blasted container in the area and prevent rampant carpal tunnel  in the process. The more realistic economic aspect of SoU is very effectively designed, in my estimation.

So what, exactly, would you have preferred to encounter more merchants for? Better bargains? More dialogs? Trigger more subquests? I guess I am confused.

You do know how to influence the random Appraise skill check price by reloading, don't you?

edit: Oh, and to touch on my own major complaint about SoU since it is in-topic. it seemed too short to develop some prestige classes like Shifter, WM and yes, even AA to be very effective within the scope of this campaign. We had to wait until the sequel to see these classes come into their own.  And I never allocated to the Spot skill until I played SoU so that was a cultural shock to me.  


Fewer merchants means lesser bargains and prices. Since all (rare) merchants in SoU were selling potions at high prices. Combine that with the the countless low level killing traps in Chapter II and you'll be spending all your gold on 4000 gold heal potions, I myself used the shadow door to rest but I didn't want to be doing this nearly every minute and it got boring. Traps caused at least 80 damage at one point.

jmlzemaggo wrote...

It reminds me of myself, some time ago.
I couldn't find a module I like, feeling very frustrated considering the power of the game engine I was playing at the time.
So you know what?
I made my own module, one of the best idea I ever had. It opened so many of my own doors...
I didn't know I owned so many houses.

I'll be very pleased to play an Elton John is dead's module some time this life.


I made modules and they were acclaimed.

Tarot Redhand wrote...

I'm sorry you don't like what you are currently playing but to dismiss in excess of 5700 user made modules on the strength of a single one is too much. I have just started a user made module that has me totally blown away. It has got technical things that I don't think the original designers of nwn would have considered possible. Its got custom music and custom voice acting and whole fost of other features. The downside? Its 260 meg of download and I suspect you will need to have other stuff downloaded as well. It's called "Dark Waters 1 - Highcastle Island" and its by Adam Miller. Try it and then tell me all user made mods are rubbish indeed!

TR


I never said these mods were rubbish but when compared to Daggerford which contains new music, cut scenes and a world map and at least 30 hours of gameplay and very good dialogue - made all by a team, I don't think anything else could compare really.

olivier leroux wrote...

Darkness over Daggerford was not made by Bioware either. I doubt it was planned as an expansion, more likely as a Premium Module, and the Premium Modules - surprise, surprise - are mostly created by fans who got hired by Bioware because Bioware realized how much potential there is in fan-made modules. And obviously, you too, prefer a canceled, quasi fan-made Premium module like Darkness over Daggerford over the official NWN expansion that you deem 'stupid'. 

NWN is all about the community, not just about Bioware, otherwise I'd recommend everyone to play Baldur's Gate instead. Of course, that's just my personal opinion, as you do have yours. But I fear you'll never discover anything new and exciting with a "No and I don't care" attitude. Personally I'm glad there is no code dictating what NWN is and what not or what it's got to be. "Good vs Evil" is an extraordinary and exceptional module which naturally means it is the exception to the rule and certainly not everyone's cup of tea. Anything else would probably have catered to your preferences a lot better. If you don't mind my asking, why, of all the thousands of modules on the Vault, did you choose one with the title "Good vs. Evil III" when you were looking for a good story? 
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]



Daggerford was headed by a former Bioware team member...

Also, understand I was not bashing Good Vs Evil III. 

http://nwn.bioware.c...daggerford.html


 Daggerford: originally it was to be a premium module but actually became the size of an expansion. I've played another "Hall of fame" module which everyone still mentions here and it doesn't contain as many areas as Daggerford. When you compare a module made by one or three people to a module made by a team who have become a team of professional developers who are now making their own game series, the obvious winner is the team who actually is working on entirely different projects now...

Pstemarie wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Darkness over Daggerford made by Ossian Studios and backed by Bioware is
pretty good. I wouldn't consider it a community module and it actually 
beats the expansions for NWN. It's how NWN should have been.


Although it may be backed by Bioware, like all the Premium Modules (which DoD is NOT - since the program was dropped by Atari before it could be released), IS a community module. It was designed by people that got there start in the Community and 90% of its content belongs to the folks at DLA - a COMMUNITY group turned pro.

Elton John is dead wrote...

No and I don't care. They're made by fans not Bioware and each are different from NWN's campaign. The one I did play was called Good Vs Evil III which had no story but had you fighting in wars and building your army. That doesn't sound like NWN to me. It's just been build with the fantastic aurora toolset.


How can you trash an entire 10 years worth of work based on a sampling of the hundreds of modules available on the Vault? Sure some are terrible, others are mediocre, but many more are great and definitely worth a look. FYI, many of those Premium modules - Witches Wake, Kingmaker, etc. - were available for free on the Vault long before Bioware got involved with them. 

Just a parting tip - know your facts before you post something. Although the Bioware Social Site may be new, the NWN Community has been around a long time...


Obviously you don't know who Ossian Studios is. I've trashed no work, I've stated that I'm not playing fan modules, I never trashed them. Learn to read English, I don't write metaphorically.

AndarianTD wrote...

Wow. So you think you're in a position to judge the NWN Modding Community on the basis of one mod picked at random -- clearly without any knowledge or understanding at all of the many genres that have been covered by the thousands of mods that have been developed for it?

Let me educate you just a bit. All the entries in the "Good vs. Evil" series are what are known as "capture the flag" mods. They say so right on the download page under "Category." "Capture the flag" is a game genre that is explicitly designed for action and combat strategy rather than for story, as opposed to the many other story-oriented module categories that are available on the Vault. Had you bothered to look, you would have seen that these include, for example, "City Adventure," "Mountain Adventure," "Roleplay," "Dramatic," "Romance," and so on.

The fact of the matter is that the NWN community is LOADED[/b] with "fan developed" and story-oriented works whose quality frequently exceeds that of the original Bioware campaigns. That community has such a rich diversity of available works, in fact, that some of us have created a group called the Academy for Modding Excellence (or AME) to give out annual awards for excellence in developing them. In addition to "Action" modules like GVE III, the categories for which we have given awards include "Best Storyelling Module," "Best Roleplay Module," and "Best P&P Conversion Module."

If you really want to see what kind of top-notch story-oriented game modules are available in the NWN community, then I suggest that you check out the AME's NWN Awards Pages (complete with finalist and winner videos) for the last several years. Try Almraiven or ShadewoodCitadelThe Aielund Saga, or (if I may be forgiven the immodesty) Sanctum of the Archmage before you judge an entire modding community on the basis of one work -- which, while being very good for what it is, is largely atypical of the rest of that community.


You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I stated that I knew what Good Vs Evil III was. If you had bothered to check my profile, you would see that I've advertised modules made by fans. I've played a few fan made modules but I'm not going to play the whole lot and I originally said that no fan made module compares to Daggerford. So I'm still not going to go back and play these fan modules you want me to.

I never mentioned anything about story so stop listening to the others.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:19 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Eternal Phoenix

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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2011, 07:27:49 pm »


               

Elton John is dead wrote...

No and I don't care. They're made by fans not Bioware and each are different from NWN's campaign. The one I did play was called Good Vs Evil III which had no story but had you fighting in wars and building your army. That doesn't sound like NWN to me. It's just been build with the fantastic aurora toolset.


IN REPLY TO SOMEONE STATING THAT ALL MODULES ARE STILL NWN.

IMO, Good Vs Evil III's gameplay is different from NWN and thus not NWN. This has nothing to do with other fan modules and I wasn't calling them rubbish. This whole argument has steamed from an idiot's misunderstanding of this sentence and I was never bashing any module, only stating that Daggerford is probably the best module/expansion for NWN.

And that's my opinion simply because it's actually done things other modules haven't. It introduced the world map for example.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2011, 07:48:19 pm »


               I would like to point out a few conspicuous aspects of posting a topic with a heading like this one on these boards.

First of all, there are many mature (in age and mind) members of the staunch NWN community that take pride in enlightening others and helping new players, scripters, builders, storywriters, etc. to understand the NWN experience better than if they had never paid a visit.  They have become very good at discerning the intent of any post.

Secondly, until one actually tries to build a module on their own, the amount of painstaking work that goes into the creation of an even small submission can be mind-boggling and, for my part, awe-inspiring.  So given this single point, just the fact that a designer or team of designers put so much selfless effort into producing content with innovation, balance and imagination should render an opinion of a bit more than "It's stupid."

Additionally, until one has some significant degree of experience sampling the content painstakingly-managed on the storage Vault they really can't be considered in a position to be at all objective.  It appears the OP falls into this latter category.

And lastly, the modules/campaigns provided by BioWare were produced by designers who were PAID to do it.  Whereas, all the free content which the Vault offers are labors of love.  Which incentive is the superior one to produce detailed, bug-free, boundlessly creative content I will leave to others to wager upon.  To me, it is a comparison of a servent's labors to those of an artist... but you can make your own analogies as you deem appropriate. Some of the most dedicated members of the original BioWare team went on to give freely of their talents as others have already pointed out.

The fact that this topic has drawn so much attention should be a testament to its inappropriateness.

- End of Sermon -
               
               

               
            

Legacy_olivier leroux

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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2011, 08:04:37 pm »


               

Elton John is dead wrote...
I made modules and they were acclaimed.


Don't be shy, go on and post the links to them.


Elton John is dead wrote...
This whole argument has steamed from an idiot's misunderstanding of this sentence and I was never bashing any module, only stating that Daggerford is probably the best module/expansion for NWN.


You may not be bashing modules but be warned that one could read this comment and some others you made as bashing community members with personal insults.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you express it in a provoking manner on a forum for everyone to read, don't complain about people discussing and even misunderstanding it. What did you expect? The thread is not titled "Daggerford is probably the best module/expansion for NWN" ...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Eternal Phoenix

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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2011, 08:34:58 pm »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

I would like to point out a few conspicuous aspects of posting a topic with a heading like this one on these boards.

First of all, there are many mature (in age and mind) members of the staunch NWN community that take pride in enlightening others and helping new players, scripters, builders, storywriters, etc. to understand the NWN experience better than if they had never paid a visit.  They have become very good at discerning the intent of any post.

Secondly, until one actually tries to build a module on their own, the amount of painstaking work that goes into the creation of an even small submission can be mind-boggling and, for my part, awe-inspiring.  So given this single point, just the fact that a designer or team of designers put so much selfless effort into producing content with innovation, balance and imagination should render an opinion of a bit more than "It's stupid."

Additionally, until one has some significant degree of experience sampling the content painstakingly-managed on the storage Vault they really can't be considered in a position to be at all objective.  It appears the OP falls into this latter category.

And lastly, the modules/campaigns provided by BioWare were produced by designers who were PAID to do it.  Whereas, all the free content which the Vault offers are labors of love.  Which incentive is the superior one to produce detailed, bug-free, boundlessly creative content I will leave to others to wager upon.  To me, it is a comparison of a servent's labors to those of an artist... but you can make your own analogies as you deem appropriate. Some of the most dedicated members of the original BioWare team went on to give freely of their talents as others have already pointed out.

The fact that this topic has drawn so much attention should be a testament to its inappropriateness.

- End of Sermon -


Firstly, I originally said that the scripting was very good for SoU. I know how much hard work went into NWN since I have used the toolset.

Second, you obviously haven't read anything I have said and thus this conversation is pointless. Come back when you have actually taken the time to read what other people say. Open your mind close minded one.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Eternal Phoenix

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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2011, 08:39:13 pm »


               

olivier leroux wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
I made modules and they were acclaimed.


Don't be shy, go on and post the links to them.


Elton John is dead wrote...
This whole argument has steamed from an idiot's misunderstanding of this sentence and I was never bashing any module, only stating that Daggerford is probably the best module/expansion for NWN.


You may not be bashing modules but be warned that one could read this comment and some others you made as bashing community members with personal insults.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you express it in a provoking manner on a forum for everyone to read, don't complain about people discussing and even misunderstanding it. What did you expect? The thread is not titled "Daggerford is probably the best module/expansion for NWN" ...


No but it was originally about SoU and people changed that about modules on the NWN vault and yes, I have tried many and none compare to Daggerford. This is my opinion as I have expressed several times and realistically if people don't like my opinion then they should shoot themselves. If people all had the same opinion then this world would be a really boring place. I and others say Daggerford is the best addon for NWN, they say the community made mods are the best addons for NWN. No one is going to change minds.

What I was originally saying was how Daggerford was better than the Bioware expansions. I also know what team made it. All I suggested about them was how Bioware backed the module that they were making and how the team that was making it was actually formed from a former Bioware team member. Surely they realize that anyone with game developing experience can actually form a team and start making a game? That's how all game companies came to be.

People should stop thinking that I think of Bioware as gods, even they came from humble beginnings. D&D wasn't even made by them. Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age are their only creations that they thought up from scratch and put their own lore into it. Before them, they were making games based on other people's works.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 janvier 2011 - 08:43 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Eternal Phoenix

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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2011, 08:46:20 pm »


               

Elton John is dead wrote...

And when I mean that, I mean I see how the scripting is pretty good, how henchmen AI has been improved and I see how areas look pretty good but the whole story is stupid, unmemorable and poor. In the Interlude, all the dungeons you explore are full of traps that would kill nearly every character below LV 10 ( I'm playing as my character from the OC), many enemies cast confusion and daze on you. There are hardly any merchants. Then in Chapter II - it's the same. Was the campaign even designed for  LV 1 - 13 characters? Even in Chapter I when I played as a LV 1 character just to test it - traps and enemies were everywhere and they were very powerful. In Chapter II when you enter the temple, I could've sworn some enemies had just been planted there without any thought of what they do.

What a terrible expansion, I'm glad I'm done with it. Hordes of the Underdark seems to follow the same route though where you have a lack of merchants.

Still, Darkness over Daggerford seems pretty good (from the short time I have spent playing it) and probably the best of the expansions if you wish to call it that.

Edit:

Just finished the expansion. The ending was good but that was it.


All the underlined bold sentences are me saying what was good about the expansion. Everything else is why I think the expansion is stupid and honestly, it's an expansion. Most expansions I've played normally have the same style of gameplay as the main game. The expansions for NWN obviously do not.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Eternal Phoenix

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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2011, 08:49:20 pm »


               So once again, I never was calling the fan modules rubbish, only that none can compare to Daggerford.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 janvier 2011 - 08:50 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_olivier leroux

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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2011, 09:08:32 pm »


               

Elton John is dead wrote...
this conversation is pointless.


Nothing else to add, I guess. I was still hoping you'd post some links to your (ac)claimed modules but I didn't think you would. *shrugs*
':whistle:'