Why do many RP servers hide other PC's level at login?

[Legacy_Khuzadrepa]

               

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
Thanks for bringing me on the right track

You are very welcome! 

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
What I am trying to say here is...that while they are all still roleplayers...there is a scale to it.

I absolutely agree.  And to take it a step further, there are different styles, too.  I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'Hardcore', but this is the way I measure it.  I am more of an Immersive style RPer, as compared to a Casual RPer.  I enjoy playing the role of my character to the hilt, and I enjoy a realistic environment.  I would also say I'm not a big Social RPer.  While I do sometimes enjoy sitting around town chatting in character, I mainly prefer situational RP brought on by adventure, or intrigue, or a DM plot.

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
The thing is that some players are really picky about roleplaying and being IC, while others are not. I am not saying they are not roleplayers...they still are...only they DO speak occasional OOC (in party chat for example or tells)...and they DO happen to metagame...whether they are doing it on purpose or not.

I totally see what you are saying here, and I agree.

Even though I am an Immersive RPer, I totally understand that this is a game.  OOC chat is absolutely necessary, and metagaming happens (which I would also agree with what FR Mulm in that most of the time, it is totally unintentional, and in some ways as kalbaern said, a degree of metagaming is needed in order to play the game.)

The only time I ever have any sort of issue with either is when it infringes on the experience of someone else.  I'm a firm believer that all players on a server should try to respect everyone else playing around them.  When Immersion is what you enjoy (and it can be a fragile thing), it's really hard to attain and enjoy when others aren't being considerate of your time and play experience due to their actions.  This wouldn't include, in my opinion, a quick OOC comment to let your party know you have to go afk.  But extended conversations, actions, etc done OOC can impact the experience of others.  If people want to shoot each other Tells, that doesn't bother me a bit.  I know I've done it.  As long as what they are doing isn't disrupting the game for others (other than cheating, etc.), I have no problem with it.

The reason kalbaern listed that I highlighted usually causes a conflict between players (the one who metagamed, and the one who was on the other end) and thus ends up ruining the experience for one or more players.  That's why I don't like it.

Also in accordance with kalbaern, even though most of the time I like to interact with others, sometimes, I'm in the mood where I just want to go alone to kill a few things.  I would apply the same rule to myself.  I stay in character, and my behavior shouldn't infringe on anyone else's play.

Everyone rolls along differently, which is normal and variety is great!  For my part, all I hope for is that others will consider the way they play on a server, and respect the play style of myself and others who have a similar play style.  Unfortunately, there aren't many games out there that allow for it.  That's one of the reasons NWN has become a haven for RPers.  I wouldn't get that consideration on WoW, or LotRO, or DDO, etc. (as it isn't enforced) but we can have it here.

There is room for ALL play styles in NWN... which is one of the many reasons I love it!

olivier leroux wrote...
But I admit I'm always a little puzzled as to why "serious roleplay" often seems to be connected to so many rules and restrictions when I thought all it requires apart from some common sense and consideration for your fellow players is the use of your imagination... With the help of your imagination, shouldn't it be possible to live with or ignore all metagaming aspects and uphold the suspension of disbelief nevertheless? (Hopefully) we will never be able to forget it's just a computer game but that doesn't mean we can't have fun and good roleplay sessions, does it? Just as as a book is only paper with print on it and we can still imagine it's a a gate to other worlds.

This is a great point (and overall post.)  Some of the best RP servers I've played on had a few simple rules.  Something like this:
1.  Treat everyone else with respect.
2.  Be true to your character and the setting.
3.  Don't harm someone else's game experience.
4.  Have fun!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Khuzadrepa, 22 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               I am not sure if I am reading this right but I never said sending tells was bad or non-immersive. Actually I stated just the opposite. I belive in the KISS system when it comes to playing.

Keep It Simple Stupid.

If the minimap is gone it seems more real to me.

If I try my best to not metagame...and we all do in bits and pieces...then I am living in the spirit of the Character the best I can and when I "win" through a dungeon or achieve a level or do anything remotely good and recognized on a server I feel good that I did it the best I knew how.

I have long struggled to keep my characters in reason. I try and follow PnP rules as best as I can regardless if anyone else does or does not. It is what I like to do. It is what several people I build and adventure with like to do. I see nothing wrong with that.

But this thread has derailed from that as the OP has made into a argument about metagaming rather than a feature that many many people like and use. I was grateful that NWNX made such a wonderful feature and thier contuined changes has done more to keep this game fresh and exciting for myself than Pro Q, CEP, or LoW and that is hard company to top.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par FR Mulm, 22 septembre 2010 - 10:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Khuzadrepa]

               

FR Mulm wrote...
I am not sure if I am reading this right but I never said sending tells was bad or non-immersive.

I don't think that you did, either.

FR Mulm wrote...
But this thread has derailed from that as the OP has made into a argument about metagaming rather than a feature that many many people like and use. I was grateful that NWNX made such a wonderful feature and thier contuined changes has done more to keep this game fresh and exciting for myself than Pro Q, CEP, or LoW and that is hard company to top.

Yeah, I think plenty of the 'why it is used' has been presented and substantiated.

Bottom line:
Some people may not prefer to hide that information, and that's fine.  There is a group of NWNers who do want it, and for good reasons (and have been hoping for this option for a long time.)  Server admins can choose based on their preference, and hopefully they are well-informed on the issue so they can make the best decision for their server.

Happy Gaming All! '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Khuzadrepa, 22 septembre 2010 - 11:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               Good last words there...

This is not such a biggie after all. I can kind of survive that a server hides this information.



 What I can't survive are servers removing the party system. Was just hoping to get back to play at Escaped from Underdark...and guess what...they removed the party system! Well well...I will not play without that period....so...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 22 septembre 2010 - 11:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Dagesh]

               I think the pros of hiding player levels outweighs the cons.  If people want to show what levels they have it can be done via scripting but overall it is my opinion that a more immersive game privileges players less information and allows them to gain that information as time goes on instead of revealing more information assuming they will 'try' and forget what is in their brain.



I think the best argument is the harper or assassin class who would rather not have his/her class known by all by a simple glance at a screen.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               So, Dagesh,
as you are so into immersion, then you also agree with this list I suppose?

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
- Only first person view should be possible. Seeing things behind you and being able to see around walls could lead to metagaming.
- The minimap should be removed.
- No party chat or party mode..and no player list in game.
- No tells.
- Seeing someone log in or out of the game could lead to metagaming and should be removed.
- Most information in the right side "server information window" should be removed.
- No names above player or monster heads.
- No more "examine" on player, objects or monsters.

....I could go on with this list....

Personally I think the many are so afraid to show their powergamer builds or that they are playing misfit races/classes which is why they don't wan t the list to show.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Dagesh]

               

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

So, Dagesh,
as you are so into immersion, then you also agree with this list I suppose?

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
- Only first person view should be possible. Seeing things behind you and being able to see around walls could lead to metagaming.
- The minimap should be removed.
- No party chat or party mode..and no player list in game.
- No tells.
- Seeing someone log in or out of the game could lead to metagaming and should be removed.
- Most information in the right side "server information window" should be removed.
- No names above player or monster heads.
- No more "examine" on player, objects or monsters.

....I could go on with this list....

Personally I think the many are so afraid to show their powergamer builds or that they are playing misfit races/classes which is why they don't wan t the list to show.

Each server decides the amount of information a player has access to.  Does having players log in and out in the combat log reveal OOC knowledge?  Sure.  Would some servers turn it off?  You bet.  Could you make the same argument for the above information in your list?  Yup.

What you are saying is that if a server takes one step, it should take all the steps (and more apparently) that you posted and that's simply bad logic because you are assuming you know why every server does what it does.  Kalbaern mentioned multiple good separate reasons why a server would choose to hide the class levels alone.  Does a minimap cause griefing on players?  If a player griefs in tells, can a player take a screenshot and report it?  So a server hiding classes may offer a type of immersion that protects information a player may not want to reveal.  The player themselves have the option then to reveal their classes/level at their own leisure.

I think it boils down to the fact that you're looking for online sympathy to a situation that you didn't like.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Knight_Shield]

               I was reading this and couldnt login fast enough to give my opinion...hiding classes and levels is just plain silly.I dont even have to think about it ..it just clicked .Like when you see ice cream you know its cold .I see servers hiding classes and levels ..what else will they be trying to hide and restrict ..I dont even bother with those servers.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               I don't really mind it, that is hiding levels, although I use other methods to discourage PKing, if that's the reason a server does it.  That is to see who you can prey on.  In mine if you kill a PC 2 levels lower than you, you actually lose xp.  Also I have contract kills so that if players want to resort to taking a contract out on someone they can.  Of course it is expensive and will slide your alignment towards chaos and evil.  Lawful Good players would be advised not to use such an option and if they really are RPing their PC they would not do such a thing anyway.



So many things I do guide players into roleplaying without using the roleplaying police approach.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Ne0nx3r0]

               I can't see leaving the levels/classes list available now that I've lived with it off... Not only to hide levels, but also to hide character intentions. If someone knows you are an Assassin, Shadowdancer, wizard, or damn near any class, they WILL (consciously or not) use that knowledge to their advantage.



Without knowing someone's level and class, you're forced to (*gasp*) RP and observe them to see what they are really capable of. Not only that, but you distinguish players based on actions and not levels. It adds quite a bit to the immersion if you can't automatically classify everyone as 'Rogue/SD' or 'Mage => Probably has invisibility'. Also if you can't tell who is higher or lower than you, then you feel more normalized with other players and social boundaries are easier to cross.



For me at least, it's not about griefers/random players considering joining the server, it's about the players who already play on the server. It's also very fun never knowing precisely what a given character is capable of.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               Well once you start to actually play with someone you should tumble pretty quickly to what they are and their level. If they are wearing a robe and casting high level spells, then you will get a clue, I hope. Likewise if they are in plate, or leather, or seem to disappear in combat.
Though it does lend intself to rping at least in the intial meeting, and you can't just glance through the server list and definitively know every characters level and classes.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ffbj, 07 octobre 2010 - 11:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

ffbj wrote...

Well once you start to actually play with someone you should tumble pretty quickly to what they are and their level. If they are wearing a robe and casting high level spells, then you will get a clue, I hope. Likewise if they are in plate, or leather, or seem to disappear in combat.
Though it does lend intself to rping at least in the intial meeting, and you can't just glance through the server list and definitively know every characters level and classes.

All of which help to make you want to pay attention to the other guy a bit more which is always good in a Role Playing World.

I would also argue this helps in Arena Worlds as well. This has been shown to be something many players have liked at almost everywhere it has been tried. I for one am very happy this was designed as it has added immensly to rping and has lead to some great fun among our players.

In the end if it is something your server sees as a postive then one person vs ten people....I bow to the group as always. It is like permadeath which as a Player I love but as a Admin I know the group does not. Therefore it is not in our module.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

TSMDude wrote...

ffbj wrote...

Well once you start to actually play with someone you should tumble pretty quickly to what they are and their level. If they are wearing a robe and casting high level spells, then you will get a clue, I hope. Likewise if they are in plate, or leather, or seem to disappear in combat.
Though it does lend intself to rping at least in the intial meeting, and you can't just glance through the server list and definitively know every characters level and classes.

All of which help to make you want to pay attention to the other guy a bit more which is always good in a Role Playing World.

I would also argue this helps in Arena Worlds as well. This has been shown to be something many players have liked at almost everywhere it has been tried. I for one am very happy this was designed as it has added immensly to rping and has lead to some great fun among our players.

In the end if it is something your server sees as a postive then one person vs ten people....I bow to the group as always. It is like permadeath which as a Player I love but as a Admin I know the group does not. Therefore it is not in our module.

When we first implimented this on my own PW, it had been against most of our players wishes. Many thought it would hinder RP or grouping for a wide variety of reasons. After the intitial grumbling and actually adding it though, our player base has come to love it. Many also pester us to help get it added elsewhere now too.