question for the community

[Legacy_isenguard76]

               I have a question for the community here,
 
I play on a server that is recently looking toward a complete rebuild and has been for over the last year, but now as the server is only weeks away from going live with its rebuild, many of its various builders have joined together and taken the work and left the server to go off and use it to start their own PW. The server I’m on now is at a loss and may fold up upon itself because they don’t want to use these other peoples work and compete against them, and being that it was most of the build team that walked off
 
My question is what they are doing right and or is it good for the NWN community as a whole?
 
Coming from a PnP background I’m not use to all the back biting…
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               

isenguard76 wrote...

I have a question for the community here,
 
I play on a server that is recently looking toward a complete rebuild and has been for over the last year, but now as the server is only weeks away from going live with its rebuild, many of its various builders have joined together and taken the work and left the server to go off and use it to start their own PW. The server I’m on now is at a loss and may fold up upon itself because they don’t want to use these other peoples work and compete against them, and being that it was most of the build team that walked off
 
My question is what they are doing right and or is it good for the NWN community as a whole?
 
Coming from a PnP background I’m not use to all the back biting…

More common than you think. Just smile and grin and know karma is coming thier way.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Butcher Dogblood]

               Well, if those builders took their own content that they created, I can't say that it's really wrong.

If I were in that situation, as the main builder, if I was to leave my current server, I would not do the same.



I would personally start fresh, for the most part.  If there was some scripting work that I did, or a few maps that I was really pleased with, those I might use again with some changes.  However, I am personally lucky enough to be involved with such a great group of folks that I can't see anything like this ever happening.



Being that NWN player worlds are usually free to play on, and builders are not paid, and are under no contractual obligations, I don't see this as a big deal.  Sucks, yes, but life goes on.  This could end up being the best thing for your server if there was internal strife with the staff.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Dreggie]

               Well coming from a server that's on its 5th incarnation after it split off from another due to DM dissagreements, was stolen multiple times, went through disasterous management changes, and finally survived a successful rebuild...I would give you this advice.

Right or wrong there's not much you can do about it, so it isn't worth dwelling on that.
The best I can recommend is to just keep plugging along and try not to hold any grudges.
If you get obsessed with being wronged, your server will collapse on your own obsession.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Dreggie, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

isenguard76 wrote...

I have a question for the community here,
 
I play on a server that is recently looking toward a complete rebuild and has been for over the last year, but now as the server is only weeks away from going live with its rebuild, many of its various builders have joined together and taken the work and left the server to go off and use it to start their own PW. The server I’m on now is at a loss and may fold up upon itself because they don’t want to use these other peoples work and compete against them, and being that it was most of the build team that walked off
 
My question is what they are doing right and or is it good for the NWN community as a whole?
 
Coming from a PnP background I’m not use to all the back biting…

 I see no reason the Admin(s) shouldn't keep what was submitted, assuming it all works. It was done with the premise of rebuilding that particular module after all. Whether those that left successfully launch their own version or not is moot IMO. "Stolen" modules are not uncommon, but in the end, they are often hosted by splinter groups with grudges against the original host(s) and usually self implode not long after. If your current PW has an established following and has been around awhile, then it should be able to weather this storm. The important thing will be to not punish players that decide to vist with the "rivals" at times. Many times Admins/DMs feel betrayed and let that bleed into how they treat players that hop back and forth between rival modules. Players simply follow their friends more often than politics and no one should have to fear repercushions for not playing in just a single module always.

 I've Built/Scripted/DM'd for many PWs including my own. While I have no qualms reusing scripts and systems I've made over the years, I've never once considered taking a whole module to host or even parts of one. Its my own opinion that hosting anothers module, regardless of my own work on it would be pretty unsatisfying. If I'm going to host a module, it's going to be my own whether made soley by myself or as a group effort.

 As a player, when I find a module being "rehosted" while the original still exists ... I avoid it like the plague now. I know of only one case where a "stolen" module has outlasted the original. Few such modules last more than 6 months in my experience and I'm not going to feel like investing my RP and playtime in what is most likely to become a "passing fancey".

 So, cheer up, take a deep breath and continue on despite the mutiny. I would ... and have over the years. 

Dreggie wrote...

Well coming from a server that's on its 5th incarnation after it split off from another due to DM dissagreements, was stolen multiple times, went through disasterous management changes, and finally survived a successful rebuild...I would give you this advice.

Right or wrong there's not much you can do about it, so it isn't worth dwelling on that.
The best I can recommend is to just keep plugging along and try not to hold any grudges.
If you get obsessed with being wronged, your server will collapse on your own obsession.

While the theme and location of the current TSM is borrowed or passed down, it's a unique version of its predecessors. Having played several of the past as well as the current version, they are miles apart. The current TSM module borrows little from past versions and is mostly scratch built, so I'd never consider it as "stolen" by my own definitions. They just took a great theme and improved upon it ... immensely I might add.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par kalbaern, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Dreggie]

               Oh sorry I wasn't too clear as to my meaning, I had only meant to point out that our servers have been through quite a bit of similar "drama" in the past.  The current version, while completely new, we old guys who stuck around from the old ones still associate fondly as heir to the initial intent, and I meant no intent to imply anything else.  I just meant older versions had been stolen, with just about the same success as the splinter groups you mentioned, Kalbaern.

I ran through the whole history of our server in a summed up form basically to point out, I know where they are coming from... but... "It happens, its unfortunate.  You just need to keep going and keep things positive."


As far as what to do with their work, isenguard.  I would agree with Kalbaern.  Submitted work is submitted work even if they decided to run off and do something else with it later.  If your server wants to use it, do... if not, then don't.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Dreggie, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               It happens more often than it should, sadly. WSI had an issue with an old admin and DMs taking work that didn't belong to them and planning to use it against the creators wishes. I don't feel it betters the community when a server has a split that causes drama and the persons involved do unethical things, no. There's a way to split from a server without coming off like a jerk and causing problems.... just so few people manage it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               I'd say to ask the current admin to go ahead and use the content, since it was originally made for the server you play on.  That some builders now want to leave and reuse the content should not be a reason not to use the work they did for the existing server.

Situations like this one is one of the reasons my entire "build team" consists only of me. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 17 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               I've had a server stolen from me.  Coincidentally, it was the very first server that TSM first split from.  We renamed ourselves Legends of the Silver Marches and I co-adminned it with another guy who also hosted it.

Well, my co-admin and host vanished off the face of the earth, as he is wont to do from time to time, and after a few days, the server went offline.  Now, I had a copy of the module (A few builds behind what was previously being hosted, but still better than nothing) and a fellow by the name of JironGhrad offered to host.

I was very relieved by this generous and curteous offer, but mostly I was naive and stupid.  So I accepted.  I posted a big announcement on the forums saying the server would live on.  People thanked the new host for his kindness.

Later that day I was talking to him on MSN about something, maybe it was something to do with how/how often I would send him updates to implement.  And out of nowhere, he just said, "what if...i don't want to."

This perplexed me, but he soon made himself clear - He did not agree with the way that I ran things, and now that he was hosting the server, he very politely told me that he would be doing what he wanted with it.

I was shocked, especially since he started posting some pretty spectacular lies on our server's forum.  In what was not one of my finest moments I decided that I'd rather see the whole thing burn around me than let him get away with this.  I posted the truth on the forums, let him reply just enough for people to see what a douche he was before banning him, I trolled the new forum he created until I was banned, and I sent the angriest e-mail I've ever sent anyone, to my former co-admin and host.

But, at the end of it all, none of it really mattered.  I had ensured that the server died (the server we had branched off from, then called TSM but now called Legends of Luruar after they split from TSM a second time, is still around though).  The server-thief went on to become a DM on Myth Drannor, I went on to become a custom-content modder and start making my own server (With lessons learned, admittedly.  I'm the only builder, the only host, the only anything, and the server will go offline permanently before I change my mind about any of that).

My point in saying all this is that ultimately, doing what's right doesn't matter, because there will always be at least one person out there who's gonna cheat you.  Those builders on your server have as much right to what they built as anyone, on the other hand, they built it for a specific server.  They're being dicks by taking it away, there's no reason you can't be just as much of a dick and still keep using it.

If your server matters to you, do what you have to do to keep it alive.  If it doesn't matter, start fresh or just find somewhere else to play.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Dreggie]

               Umm.. ultimately I would agree with Eradain's overall jist even though his descriptions of events are highly innacurate, its best not go further into it though as it would be off topic and quite a sore spot for parties involved.



Each person involved is going to have their own account of why the split or theft occurred.  You can't get too concerned about the details, just do what needs to be done.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               Judging by the pretty extensive private message Dreggie just sent me....No, my description of events isn't inaccurate, because we're thinking of two different events.  You, Dreggie, seem to be thinking of the drama that led to LSM and TSM becoming two differnet servers.  I didn't discuss that in my above post at all, though.

You seem to have confused the TSM/LSM split with my story.  They are two different things.  I wasn't around for the TSM/LSM split.  My story is purely things that happened to LSM after the fact.

I co-adminned LSM and then solo-adminned it for a little while when the host vanished, I didn't have any hand in it becoming a server, or the events that led up to that.  I can only speak to the events leading up to and including its death.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

Eradrain wrote...

I've had a server stolen from me. Coincidentally, it was the very first server that TSM first split from. We renamed ourselves Legends of the Silver Marches and I co-adminned it with another guy who also hosted it.
The server-thief went on to become a DM on Myth Drannor, I went on to become a custom-content modder and start making my own server

Just to clarify, this is NOT the TSM that is currently up at all. And is in fact from 2003 or 2004 I think is what he is talking about and was the second split from Darkeagle's Original TSM.

As was stated by Dreggie and knowing Jirhon a bit I find that there is two and often three sides to this story and think the truth lies a bit far from where you are throwing Jih under the bus here and insulting a Staff from the server Myth Drannor which in roundabouts insults them. Probably would have been better to leave the names out of your post.

Eradrain wrote...
I had ensured that the server died

Just wow. No matter how much dislike I have for a server or what I perceive has been done to me, actively trying to kill a server and a player base is nuts. Sorry. No way around that as if you TRY and kill a server it is wrong. It disrespects the base that calls it home.

This was honestly before my time as I came after and find myself getting squawked at by my wife as I post this for even being online but frak...you can only sleep for so long.

Eradrain wrote...
(the server we had branched off from, then called TSM but now called Legends of Luruar after they split from TSM a second time, is still around though)

LoL and TSM split was the fourth split actually. LoL has since on the posting of this lost its host, succumbed to infighting and is trying to be saved by the few good folks that stayed. I wish them well as they need it.

TSM on the other hand has flourished, is ours and has stayed with the original folks since the beginning. Dreg, Mew, Stoney and a few others that have been around since 2002. Therefore, TSM is still the original and LoL is a offshoot regardless if it has the old module.

Eradrain wrote...
My point in saying all this is that ultimately, doing what's right doesn't matter, because there will always be at least one person out there who's gonna cheat you.

If your server matters to you, do what you have to do to keep it alive. If it doesn't matter, start fresh or just find somewhere else to play.

One, you are contradicting yourself here. If the work matters so much then you should not have tried to kill it as it is the work that matters not your feelings. Not who uses it. I have seen my work in role playing mods, action servers, and one particular naughty PW used for...well...naughty things. I am happy to see it being used credit or not. And if no one used it thats okay as well. I had fun making it. 

It is afterall about the Community of Players. Chico makes fantastic things as does Lord of Worms. They make them because they can and like to do it and I bet it is the work doing it more than the goal of being recognized that keeps them up to 3 AM drinking Mt Dew and eating Cheesepuffs.

Two, Doing what is right ALWAYS matters. As Spike says, Do the Right Thing. FRMulm said it best...Karma is a bee-word and the universe will get its own rewards. Just because they steal the work sinking to thier level means you lose something important in yourself and that is self respect. No thanks. Rather lose my module than my respect.

As a great bard said,
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none



EDIT: I see you clarified above me and I am grateful for that. Thank you very much as it read like you were saying the current TSM had something to do with it and wanted to assure people that we did NOT have anything to do with the Legends servers...either of them.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par TSMDude, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               My apologies for getting the history of TSM's various splits and spinoffs wrong.  I wasn't around for most of 'em, I co-adminned LSM, and I played at TSM at various times, but rarely through patches of drama.

I'm not, however, interested in having you or anyone judge me for how I acted at the time.  You weren't there, you weren't a participant, so how dare you?

It's easy to say "Oh, be nice, let us all turn the other cheek," but when you have someone insulting you explicitly on private communication channels, stealing your server and turning your own player-base against you with lies, well.  When that happens to you TSMDude, you can show us all your outstanding moral fibre then and rise above.

As for me, well.  By that point, LSM was already pretty much dead anyway.  But damned if I was going to let someone get away with that kind of disrespect and insult to me just because they thought the anonymity of the internet would keep them safe.  I've got more dignity than that.  I made sure everybody knew my side of the story.  And if I got overzealous and angry?  Sue me, I'm human, and I was hurt and angry.  Hurt and angry people act hurt and angry.  If anyone ever treated me like that in real life, I'd punch them in the face.  I don't see why the internet should be any different.

Now, you might know the guy and I'll assume that's why you're defending him by default.  But if you're not satisfied with my account of events, and if you want it from someone other than me, go ahead and ask your friend Dreggie.  I'm sure he'll be happy to give you the same history lesson that he gave me in aforementioned private communication, which did include a little bit about Jiron and what he ended up saying that, apparently, hurt more people than just me.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_omen_shepperd]

               

isenguard76 wrote...

I have a question for the community here,
 
I play on a server that is recently looking toward a complete rebuild and has been for over the last year, but now as the server is only weeks away from going live with its rebuild, many of its various builders have joined together and taken the work and left the server to go off and use it to start their own PW. The server I’m on now is at a loss and may fold up upon itself because they don’t want to use these other peoples work and compete against them, and being that it was most of the build team that walked off
 
My question is what they are doing right and or is it good for the NWN community as a whole?
 
Coming from a PnP background I’m not use to all the back biting…

Well from the viewpoint of someone who dealt with this one time
before I think one needs to look at a couple of  Factors here.

• “I play on a server
  
     that is recently looking toward a complete rebuild and has been for
  
     over the last year, but now as the server is only weeks away from
  
     going live with its rebuild, many of its various builders have
  
     joined together and taken the work and left the server to go off and
  
     use it to start their own PW. “

This happened to me when I
ran a server with two friends. We promoted a couple of our players to
DM’s and had them working on some new encounter areas for the mod.
So instead of sending them an empty mod they could use to build with
we sent them a copy of our mod. Well we were given a mod that had
encounters in it that only could be beaten via uber means . The dm’s
then asked if they could revamp and create all new quests for the
server. We unfortunately had to decline their offer because our quest
system was having trouble recognizing subraces. We tried to explain
this situation to them only to be called some very mean things in
return and they immediately handed in their resignations as dm’s.
The one person wanted to hold on to his dm position until he had a
last chance to say goodbye to all his players. But at the time I
could see no reason on letting someone hold a position they were
giving up while they were being hostile toward the admin team. Thats
when things went from bad to worse, I was called every name in the
book and threatened with the public postings of outside conversations
from msn messenger not to mention half the server left to go play on
the new server thanks to the former dm’s. Well after a month more
of being insulted on a daily basis from the former dm’s and former
players that left with him I decided to post the msn messages me and
the one former dm had to show him saying he dident care about the
players it was about takeing me down. That only made things get
worse, it was definitely a situation that put another nail in the
coffin for this server. One of many nails this server had waiting on
the bench. I held a grudge for about a year with the former dm’s
but eventually I faded away into the study of the toolset and
scripting to learn everything I could about making a server and I
started planning my next server in takeing my time and developing my
server the way I want it. I found over the time I spent it wasn't
worth everything I put into the former server to get myself so angry
over something someone who only know me from nwn. They lived on the
other side of the globe from me so why did it matter? Both servers
are down now and have been for some time. And yet I am still here
trudging through the past three years a much wiser builder and a
better gamer because I came to the conclusion that “It’s just a
game meant for fun. If someone doesn't enjoy my version of fun then
'> .  oh well I tried that's all I can do... Next player come on
down”


   2. “My question is
what they are doing right and or is it good for the NWN community as
a whole?”




Well if they made it and had requested it removed IMO it really
comes down to the Person or Persons running the mod with the content.
they can keep it in if they really want to but most in the community
dosen’t endorse this avenue of behavior and most of us would agree
that if the content creator asked for content to be removed it should
be. The exception to the initial statement would be if the content
creator had some legal rights to said work then the person running
the mod might have to remove the content at there request or face
possible suit. But the lines with nwn are different so honestly I
dont know what someone could do legally to get content removed and I
don't think I want to know either '> .



I know from my experience I learned a great number of things
A. people can only have as much control over your mad as you let
them.
B. if you think you need a break you do, find a new project and
take a deep breath.



Is it good for us as a
community as a whole? Servers come and go , another ripple in the
pond.
.