The Way Inn peristent world

[Legacy_Fergoose]

               

Svneati wrote...

My issue with this server is that it feels like you're playing a supporting character, and that the DM team's PCs are the main campaign characters.

You are not alone in this perspective. For me, this relates primarily to the friends playing with friends issue I referred to above. A substantial proportion of the DM activity certainly focusses on the high level characters, many of whom are the longest serving characters (therefore naturally including the founding DM's characters). Having said that, some DM characters seem to have had little or no involvement in some of these main plot arcs and conversely some players who aren't DMs have been involved in them.

Additionally, it appears now that XP gain is a bit more generous even if you have a slightly wide party level range (e.g. min 1, max 5 or min 4 max . This appears to be successfully counteracting players fixation with partying in tight groups to maximise XP gain (I've been guilty of this myself). I can honestly say I've only knowingly adventured with a DM character less than five times in over two years and never with one of their high level characters. I've also not had much DM interaction, which is fine, as its not something I seek out anywhere (I often feel DM events on most RP servers put my characters in an RP straightjacket). None of this means I can't enjoy a place. I try to concern myself in game (and in life) with the things I can and can't do, rather than what other folk are up to.

It is undoubtedly a well-crafted server, but it seems wasted on the, quite frankly, terrible administrative and interpersonal skills of the staff.

Again, you are not the only one to have this perspective. For my part I know in 8 or so years of playing this game I've intentionally said something rude or inconsiderate on a forum a handful of times, and never something intentionally rude OOC in game (something of a minor miracle as I'm a hot headed potty mouth in real life).  But I know that, through the eyes of fellow players, they've thought I've been intentionally unpleasant a number of times, and I lose track of the daily confusion that arises from my muddled typing. If you then asked me to communicate in my non-native tongue, that issue would rapidly multiply!

Having said that, I'm not going to sit in judgement about what DMs have and have not said to other players, as I've not been privvy to that. Show me chatlogs and I'll give an opinion! I can only say that I have healthy disagreement with them on a fairly regular basis on the forum and in PMs and would not play there if I felt I was treated inappropriately. They also frankly bend over backwards to hear some of our ideas, with XP changes, new widgets, feats, areas and spells all being derived from consultation with players in the past. Of course they also reserve the right to not implement your fine ideas (and heaven knows I throw plenty at them, with a success rate of about 1%. Which probably says more about my ideas, than it does about them).

I would say that if folk are looking to play on a server where the DMs and builders are there exclusively to cater for your entertainment, you may want to look elsewhere. If however you are looking for somewhere where the team, who have invested, and continue to invest, their time and money in a project and try to balance player entertainment with retaining control of how they want the server setting to be maintained and developed, then this could be for you.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PurpleDragonKnight]

               Been playing The Way Inn on-and-off for a few months. I would tend to agree with Svneati's assessment. It is less player-driven than other servers. That is, you find it hard to make a real impact. But still, I have enjoyed RPing here. It is a nice enough environment and the world is quite well-made. It's not a server that has set the world alight or anything, but it's a solid place where you can get your weekly dose of RP.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Arinoch]

               Though I'm not sure who Svneati's character(s) was/were, I'd say certainly, at least now, that the DM PCs are not "main campaign characters", and in the past, if anything, they were at most occasionally used to pass on new branches of knowledge to non-DM PCs to advance plotlines. Even in one of the most climactic fights that has happened on the server thus far, where two DM PCs were along, they actually came up with reason to stay back and defend the others from ambush so that the final confrontation would be composed entirely of non-DM PCs.

To reply to Fergoose's point about high level plot arcs, and paint another picture, I know recently there have been several plots run specifically around developed mid-level characters, and I know at least one that touched all sorts of people (I only had a tiny involvement for about an hour, but it was enjoyable, and my char's high level so that's fine). I also know of a level 1 druid who received almost immediate DM involvement after just starting, and it was not a long-time player. The last specifically high level plot arc was over 6 months ago, and there were many characters involved, with at least 7 or 8 non-DM characters present at the cliffhanger of a final event (the climactic fight I mentioned earlier).

One of the difficulties with "leaving a mark on the world" is you have to have a reasonable idea of what that means. The environment on TWI is realistic and adult. If you have a level 2 fighter, what mark can they leave? They can start getting established and known in society, but they're not going to have enough clout to replace the Duke of Daggerford or anything. '>

So I'd only call it less player-driven as much as the proper evolution of characters should eventually lead to that drive, but things need time. The DMs don't know how awesome you are at RP and what grand plans you have - it has to show. They're certainly protective of their creation, but you would be too if you put years into a project, no? It's part of the reason why level caps are directly linked to a character's prestige. Whether that prestige is as a skilled mercenary type, or a powerful hero type, that depends on the character, but it's important growth. This is a server where each level feels like an accomplishment, even if you're just getting another point to your BAB. You won't be level 20 in a few months.

Svneati states "terrible administrative and interpersonal skills of the staff". Aside from the typical "noone's perfect" and "we're all human" speeches, all I can say is that I came to TWI from a server I'd played on for 3 years. I had played only 1 day on TWI's beta server, just to poke around, before it went live. They didn't know me in the slightest, nor did they have any concept whatsoever of my skill as an RPer. I was kind, I was considerate, and I commented in a constructive way when I disagreed with something. No, being nice is not the same as sucking up. You can't approach a NWN server (or really any server, but eh) with the pure idea of "what am I getting out of this?"; it has to also include "what kind of efforts have gone into this place?" DMs aren't paid. This isn't WoW where you're paying for a service, either - if anything the DMs are paying so you can play for free. If the server is one where the DMs live to make your life awesome, and that's what gives them pleasure, then great. But you can't honestly fault a DM for wanting to also enjoy the world as a player, or enforce ideals that maintain the integrity of the world they've built. If you were told what was wrong with your work all the time, with only limited acknowledgement about all the good aspects of it, you'd get a bit prickly and guarded too. That's just human nature. People like to be reminded that the effort they've put into something is appreciated, even if it's not perfect and could use a touch up here and there.

There was a period a while back where an abundance of negative comments from players definitely jaded the DMs, and activity went down for a time. Again: Human. They're back now, refreshed, and working on the next hak to enhance what the server can offer its players, and player numbers are on the rise again, which is excellent. To what Fergoose said about hearing ideas, see the TWI forums to see the suggestion threads that have lit up recently as the DMs asked for feat and spell ideas to go into the hak.

I can't say anything else better than what Fergoose wrote in his last paragraph.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndiamoAlaparte]

               Some rules of The Way Inn right off of their forums:

-No Running to dungeons (Running is not and never has been a viable form of travel, and especially not on horseback)

-No Running in dungeons (Moving quickly in a dangerous, life-threatening situation is OOC)

-No repeating the same dungeon (You're a gold farmer)

-No resting in the wilderness (Camping is metagaming and OOC in the FR universe)

-No playing characters of Evil alignment (You're too immature to play one without DM supervision at all times)

-No passing level 5 without applications, applications everywhere! (We don't trust you)

I played here for two months, I had one of the first accepted paladins on the server. At one point I was docked 100 XP for using a crossbow (not a sword) against a monster a DM spawned behind me that was at least 7 CRs above me. The DM explained that it was OOC to think tactically, and that my 14-intelligence, 14-wisdom  Paladin would have charged wildly into combat with a sword against a giant elemental. He then proceeded to scold me OOC. After I defeated the monster that I was supposed to die to, I was granted 10 XP. 10, for defeating a CR 10 elemental with an on-hit strength damage strike, and 10 AB, with a level 3 Paladin. Whoooo. Effectively I gained negative 90 XP for killing an elemental. Only on The Way Inn!
...
Then the DM logged onto his own Paladin PC and scolded me ICly. Was hilariously jading. Maybe things have changed in the year or so since I played, but if the same people are running it, I would not recommend this server. It just feels hostile. Not "adult," not "mature," just hostile and distrusting.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndiamoAlaparte, 31 mai 2011 - 08:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Arinoch]

               Could you provide a link to those rules? They must be out of date and should get updated by the DMs. Obviously you've had a bad experience on the server, but considering that, as I post, there's 14 people on, with at least half of them being long-time players, these problems must not be consistent. I know I've never heard of anything like that happening. It's a real shame because you would have had to put in considerable effort to get a Paladin approved (the DMs ensure that the player of a paladin or kensai really understands the morality base of the FR and how it differs from the real world), which is a significant amount of trust to be placed. Not only that but, like you said, with 14 int/wis it makes perfect sense to think strategically, and the DMs do look at characters' stats. It's also especially odd since the only DM that plays a paladin a) also has a crossbow (that I've never seen used, but I know he has one), and the player loves all things strategy. It's a shame you had that kind of bad experience, and that you felt it was bad enough that you created an account on the bioware forums just to post this. '> Which paladin was yours? I can only think of one I knew of, and my character even ended up giving them some paladin-only armor he found. That said, I don't think that paladin has gone past level 1 yet.

Just to address the issues quickly, since if they're posted somewhere they're definitely out of date:

- Running is only discouraged because it's silly to think someone can run everywhere. Obviously this is a game, but since there aren't many places you should be going solo (it's a dangerous world), it really shouldn't come up too often.

- There are so many dungeons around that scale that there's really no need to repeat any dungeons. It shouldn't be about gold farming, since it takes a while for dungeons to respawn. It's more about realism. Your character just cleared a mine of kobolds (or whatever) - why would they go back and a) fight through a bunch of kobolds again, and why would there be all new loot? Just more reasonable to go elsewhere. And all the settlements have low-level spawning dungeons around them.

- You can rest in the wilderness just fine; you just need a tent set up in order to benefit from it.

- The DMs restricted evil alignment because so many people were having issues with the morality of the FR. The problem is that when you have paladins who can detect evil, and you have a server that's built far better for good/neutral grouping, the evil forces end up screwed in 90% of the cases because evil is a kill-no-sight thing. Evil isn't "if I give them a bed to stay in they might turn it around"; it's "they've gone off the edge and could murder my family if I gave them the chance." There are exceptions, but not many.

- You actually can't pass level 4 without an application, not level 5. And as I've written in previous posts, it's partially due to character reknown. If you've been roleplaying a solid character steadily you'll have no issue passing the first level cap.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_A_Julian]

               I tried it, but found it very difficult to integrate. Most people seem to play characters who are not exactly welcoming...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               I applied to play a Paladin here, back when the server first launched.  My application specified that I was interested in exploring the nuances and shortcomings of D&D alignment, and use the paladin class as a vehicle to examine how imperfect the concept of a "lawful good" person was.

The application was rejected on the basis that my approach to the paladin class differed from the server staff's vision for how it should be played, which is fair enough.  One thing I learned from the application process and from wandering around on a Ranger character, is that the Way Inn seemed very much built to cater to the oldest of oldschool D&D fans.  Like, back when D&D was as much about punishing the player as it was rewarding them, when playing the Tomb of Horrors module meant you could choose to open any out of 3 chests, and all three chests would kill you and destroy your gear.

It wasn't for everybody, and it certainly wasn't for me, but if you want the authentic, 1980's-era D&D experience, you'll probably enjoy yourself here.

Then again, maybe it's changed now and is much more open.  My experience there ended in January of 2010.

Also, @AndiamoAlaparte- Was that post for real?  Because, wow.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 04 juin 2011 - 09:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zanzibarr]

               Pretty much what others have said. The atmosphere is harsh and unfriendly. It feels like the DMs and players want to make it an unenjoyable experience for each other. I tried it because I really like the idea of a gameworld based around an inn. After a day there, I left feeling genuinely baffled as to why people devoted their hours to playing there. *shrugs* Just my honest opinion.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Arinoch]

               

Also, @AndiamoAlaparte- Was that post for real?  Because, wow.

As my response hopefully suggested, no it wasn't for real.

January 2010 was indeed a long time ago. I only started playing in August 2009, right after the beta ended (actually two days before it ended, but whatever). I'd agree that around that time there was definitely a protective feeling the DMs seemed to possess over the world they'd put so much work into, but as I've said, there were various fairly good reasons for that. I think things have loosened up and settled significantly since then, especially as the playerbase has equally settled and advanced, and it feels like more of a team setting.

Also no chests explode at that end of dungeons, don't worry. '>

There are rules in place, and some of them may differ with what you want from a PW or what you want from D&D. That doesn't make it harsh, though; it just means the world's probably not for you. If you go over the forums, there's welcoming threads to new players, answering questions from new players, etc. IG I usually try to meet any new characters I see, if I can (there's been a few exceptions of late due to time constraints).

I'd be interested to know when and which character Zanzibarr, A_Julian, and Andiamo played (especially Andiamo, a level 3 paladin - I never asked, but I'm not sure how he determined the CR of the creatures, since difficulty rating is disabled on TWI). I'd be glad to talk in PM with any of you with specific examples so they could be addressed away from a public forum, because I'm sure it was just misunderstanding or unfortunate timing. I PMed A_Julian already but didn't get a reply. Worlds evolve and people grow, and if, like Eradrain, these experiences are all from over a year ago, I'd perhaps give it another shot.

Do keep in mind when you try a new RP server that there's all kinds of pre-existing RP going on around you. Especially now when there's a high mix of characters with months of backstory, it can be hard to meet all kinds of inviting, happy IC people. That doesn't mean we're prickly OOCly. Send a tell or post on our forum if you have questions - I can't think of anyone who wouldn't be happy to help OOCly.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndiamoAlaparte]

               My story is 100% factual. Character name was Luther Ravenholm. I may have gotten dates wrong because it was a while ago.

I didn't know the CR for sure, but I can make a fairly accurate guess based on the AB a creature has, matched with their base class. In general, something with 10 AB is usually a significant challenge for a level 3 character. Not to mention the, you know, on-hit ability damage with a saving throw far above what is acceptable risk.

All you need to do is read through some of the announcements or staff posts to really get an understanding of the level of contempt your average player is held with. You're guilty until proven innocent - or, in this case, a ****ty, untrustworthy roleplayer until proven otherwise.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndiamoAlaparte, 05 juin 2011 - 06:32 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Arinoch]

               So if this was the case for you, the rules as they were before definitely aren't as they are now.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Varanon]

               AndiamoAlaparte,

-No Running to dungeons (Running is not and never has been a viable form of travel, and especially not on horseback)

You are asked to stay in character. This means you shouldn't run for long stretches, that's true. However, horses can of course gallop, and you are allowed to do that.

-No Running in dungeons (Moving quickly in a dangerous, life-threatening situation is OOC)

Sorry, but there is no such rule. The in character rule still applies, but of course, you can run in life-threatening situations. The rule is "no OOC running"... running to and from monsters is of course IC. Running from one dungeon to the next, or one loot chest to the next is not. This kind of play style is discouraged on almost every RP server I ever played on.

-No repeating the same dungeon (You're a gold farmer)

Not on the same day, no. Most RP servers have such a rule, though. You can of course do the same dungeon again later.

-No resting in the wilderness (Camping is metagaming and OOC in the FR universe)

This is wrong, there is no such rule. You can buy camping kits in shops, and there are camp sites around the surface. Would that be the case if there was such a rule ? We had people camp inside the town walls, on the road in front of the town gate and so on, so if you were one of those, then yeah, you have been told not to rest on this particular spot.

-No playing characters of Evil alignment (You're too immature to play one without DM supervision at all times)

Ignoring the presumptous comment, the reason for not allowing evil alignment is simple: We had several players of evil alignment in the past. After some time, the "trouble" they caused in character caused out of character grief, and drained us DM of much of the motivation we had. As such, we decided that evil characters would no longer be allowed. This doesn't have anything to do with thinking anyone of being immature, it's just been a drag for all of us, DMs and players alike, so we stopped it.

This is also a rule that is frequently found on RP servers, for exaclty that reason.

-No passing level 5 without applications, applications everywhere! (We don't trust you)

Actually, it's level 4. There are a lot of servers with varrying amounts of applications and restrictions. The level cap system is not there because we don't trust you, it's just to allow us DMs to observe if people play their characters. There are servers out there that don't allow you to level past a certain level if you don#t have at least half of your experience through roleplay XP.

And applications are only necessary for playing divine classes like paladins and clerics.


I can't comment on your experience with the DM, since I wasn't there. I'm sorry if that actually offended you. However, knowing the DM in question, I have my sincerest doubts that there was any bad intention behind it.

If you do not like the rules, I can understand that, and wish you all the best in finding another server that suits your needs better than The Way Inn.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               I really don't mean to start a fight, or an argument, so please don't take it that way.  But what do all those restrictions (No OOC running/leveling without an app every 4 levels/visiting the same dungeon twice in a day) really do to help your server?

I've played (and been on the staff of) on a number of roleplaying PWs with extremely relaxed policies where they had any at all, and the quality of the roleplay was never in any way diminished by the fact that the players weren't constantly being monitored for any threat of enjoying the mechanical side of the game as well.  In fact, I'd say that treating your roleplayers as adults and not micromanaging how much they grind or whether they run or walk when no other players are around, nearly always brings about a better atmosphere than the reverse.

People often seem to think that you cannot simultaneously enjoy RP, and the more video-game-y parts of NWN, that liking the latter somehow makes you a worse roleplayer.  This is fundamentally untrue, and policies as harsh as the ones you describe might well scare away extremely talented roleplayers who don't like to be treated that way and subject to rules that, at least to me, seem almost arbitrarily stifling.

I respect that servers have different ways of doing things, but I genuinely don't understand the ones that take this hard-line "You're here to RP and ignore the fact that this is NWN rather than tabletop P&P as hard as you can!" stance.  Help me understand it, please.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 08 juin 2011 - 01:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Arinoch]

               As a player of TWI, and someone who writes policy for a living, I'll speak to a few things (though have a cold so my brain may be all over the place. >.> Sorry in advance.) To the running and the same dungeon per day issues, I'd maybe agree that it's not really needed, but that's based on the idea of constant monitoring. In reality, how much is it being watched? I have no idea. It's not something I dwell on. That said, part of the reason it doesn't harm anything is because there are caps in place.
The level caps are on a different level than the other things mentioned. Though certainly debateable from a purely mechanical point of view, as has been said, there's a couple of reasons I can think of (and the DMs can add or refute as needed, but this is my opinion):

1) To ensure that the level of a character is sufficient with their role in the social network of the PW's world. That is to say that if everyone were level 20 it's a bit odd since a level 20, in D&D terms, is supposed to be ridiculously powerful.

2) To ensure, in part, that RP is balanced with leveling. A character's personal development should go right along with their physical prowess, which is unfortunately directly associated with leveling. The natural progression of time is simply a necessity to ensure some kind of realistic character development. Avoiding the "I was evil yesterday, but I met a nice lady who changed me, so I'm good now" kind of thing, which is not the best example, but eh. 

3) I was recently told, and am now paraphrasing so I may be off, that probably 95% of TWI's players are above the age of 20. Aside from having great university schedules that give loads of free time, most people are busy with RL concerns at varying points. Caps are in place, I'm sure in part, to ensure that the person who has days of free time per week don't get insanely past their friends who have hours per week.

I know that sounds like a penalty for the characters who have tons of play time, but remember that creatures scale on this server as well. Let's say me and my buddy start at the same time. Our characters are great friends. He has all the time in the world to play, and I have four hours a week. A month later he's sitting at level 15 and I'm at level 2. I can't go out with him because I'll get destroyed by the much higher-than-me averaged creatures that spawn. He'll be bored because of the much lower-than-him-averaged creatures that spawn, and we'll both get only 1 exp per kill.

Right now I have a character that's level 11, and the max server cap is 12. That character's really the only one I play, which is the reason he's so high, but I'll also note that he's not yet at 12, and I've been playing him since the end of the beta. I don't know how much I can talk about people with well-played multiple characters who more time to play than I do, and whether or not they're satisfied with the caps, but I've never had an issue with them.

Being level 11 now, even with most of my friends' high level characters between level 7-10, actual challenge for me isn't very easy to find unless we stumble onto a dungeon with a naturally high level spawn (had a great incident of that the other night, btw). Despite that, I've still been much more strategically challenged at every character level because of the scaling system on TWI than I ever was throughout my previous server from level 1-21, and I enjoy that immensely. Few things are a guaranteed win, despite my level; they're just not quite as terrifying as if I were on the low end of the average. Don't get the idea that because TWI has plenty of rules based around RP that there's no combat.

Anyway, I realize the last point's a bit of a stretch because if noone had caps there would be a greater span of levels and you'd probably always have someone near you, but in tandem with the other two points it's valid. The slow levels, scaling spawns, and level caps all go towards adding to the feeling of growth and development for my character in this world. I had an epic character on a server I played on for three years that only allowed epic characters with DM nomination - I still got bored when I maxed out, even though I loved the server, the players, and my character. Nothing was challenging anymore. I chose to play on this server because of the interesting, and different ruleset and features. To each their own.

Are the caps subjective to DM standards? Yes. Do they at least guarantee some manner of acknowledgement from those DMs? Yes. It's certainly reflective of P&P, or what I imagine P&P is like, for sure, but I don't consider that a bad thing. Different, perhaps, but not a bad thing. On this server, the level caps are in place for various reasons as defined by the DMs. If I were playing a tabletop game, the DM would equally be in charge of the game systems. If I didn't like the DM, I wouldn't be playing with them. This is the DM's world, after all, and they designed it to their own vision. If there are players who are satisifed playing with these restrictions, like me, then more power to them.

I think treating people like adults goes both ways - it's also about saying "here's my server, and here are the rules. This is our vision. If you don't like it, there are many other servers out there with different rulesets, level limits, features, settings, etc. that you are free to go try. And I hope you find what you're looking for."

As Eradrain says, yes, some talented RPers who want total freedom could be scared away. But odds are so will less talented RPers who would otherwise focus on hack and slash and powerleveling hybrid RDD/Monks. So instead of having to police such things, instead there are rules in place to prevent them from occurring at all. Meh. No world is ever going to be built that pleases everyone. I find the concept of WoW incredibly boring, for example, but last I heard it was doing pretty well. TWI has what I'm looking for, and I'm happy to be here.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               Fair answer, thank you.