Deafness, Silence and Sonic

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               

I don't recall exactly, but I think a silence effect reduces all sonic damage dealt to the affected target to 0.  Right?

 

Does a deafness effect have any effect on sonic damage?

 

If not, do you think it should?

 

 

 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

I don't recall exactly, but I think a silence effect reduces all sonic damage dealt to the affected target to 0.  Right?

 

Does a deafness effect have any effect on sonic damage?

 

If not, do you think it should?

My patch solves this. Being deaf/silenced now grants immunity to sound-based spells like Wail of Banshee and abilities like howls. However unlike silence being deaf doesn't block sonic damage itself, so deafness does not grants immunity to sonic traps or Sound Burst spell (while being deaf will give immunity to the stun). This all corresponds with DnD rules of course.

 

Also my patch solves vision and spells. Being blinded/in darkness (or being a monster that doesnt have eyes -> oozes) gives immunity to gaze abilities or sight-related spells like color spray and flare. However I wasnt that thorough and I did not implemented a facing check, mainly due to balance reasons. I think that would be too hardcore to give immunity to gaze abilities just if you turn around '>.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

I think that would be too hardcore to give immunity to gaze abilities just if you turn around '>.

 

That's actually a mechanic you see in something like WoW...but you don't have as fine control of character movement/facing in NWN.  So yes, I think it wouldn't be a good thing to do in this case.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

That's actually a mechanic you see in something like WoW...but you don't have as fine control of character movement/facing in NWN.  So yes, I think it wouldn't be a good thing to do in this case.

actually you have this control but its mostly PvE so it would be too easy to use against monsters and dodge every sight abilities like that.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

actually you have this control but its mostly PvE so it would be too easy to use against monsters and dodge every sight abilities like that.

 

Trust me when I say you do not have nearly the same control of your character as you do in many RPGs (consider fun things like how your character decides to "dance" with enemies when you were TRYING to block a doorway -- but you moved away so now the enemies can come through).  Not enough to be that precise on movement.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

actually you have this control but its mostly PvE so it would be too easy to use against monsters and dodge every sight abilities like that.

 

Yep, a character can always walk backwards with the "S" key right into a monster, while having the camera top down to view the monster.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

actually you have this control but its mostly PvE so it would be too easy to use against monsters and dodge every sight abilities like that.

Trust me when I say you do not have nearly the same control of your character as you do in many RPGs (consider fun things like how your character decides to "dance" with enemies when you were TRYING to block a doorway -- but you moved away so now the enemies can come through). Not enough to be that precise on movement.

I thought, in the context of this thread, Shadooow meant that NWN allows enough control to set a PC facing away from an opponent for purposes of a gaze attack, not that NWN had the same level of control as all other games.

BTW, I totally agree that the "combat dance" has annoying side effects. I have had toons dance out of line of sight (behind open doors, etc.), dance around to the front of an opponent he is trying to flank, etc.

BTW, does being blind or deaf make one immune to taunts? I know that the taunter can't be invisible or stealthed, but what if the target of the taunt can't see or hear the taunter? I seem to recall that a PC can run away from a taunter (or maybe just turn away) and avoid the taunt, if he recognizes the taunter's taunt animation.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

I thought, in the context of this thread, Shadooow meant that NWN allows enough control to set a PC facing away from an opponent for purposes of a gaze attack, not that NWN had the same level of control as all other games.


BTW, does being blind or deaf make one immune to taunts? I know that the taunter can't be invisible or stealthed, but what if the target of the taunt can't see or hear the taunter? I seem to recall that a PC can run away from a taunter (or maybe just turn away) and avoid the taunt, if he recognizes the taunter's taunt animation.

exactly

 

taunt doesnt have to be verbal

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

I thought, in the context of this thread, Shadooow meant that NWN allows enough control to set a PC facing away from an opponent for purposes of a gaze attack, not that NWN had the same level of control as all other games.

 

Until you have wonderful thing where you click to run away and your character runs *backwards* still looking in the direction you came from somehow.

 

Until your character decides to take an AoO on something behind them and turns around for it.

 

Until your character just flat out decides to engage an enemy that walked up and started attacking them.

 

Can you turn your character?  Yes (but slowly).  Can you keep your character turned?  That's another issue.  NWN just isn't set up in a good way for that kind of stuff.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Until you have wonderful thing where you click to run away and your character runs *backwards* still looking in the direction you came from somehow.

 

Until your character decides to take an AoO on something behind them and turns around for it.

 

Until your character just flat out decides to engage an enemy that walked up and started attacking them.

 

Can you turn your character?  Yes (but slowly).  Can you keep your character turned?  That's another issue.  NWN just isn't set up in a good way for that kind of stuff.

Im not sure what game you play but I can do this in NWN. On a servers with my patch, monsters does not use "pulses" abilities centered on target, but on themselves. While this is clear bugfix, it allowed players to abuse this and dodge pulse abilities easily. Because you have this control in NWN, you can move your character anytime in game no matter which animation is he doing - attacking, spellcasting, taunt... If I allowed to dodge gaze effects by turning around Im 100% sure that a powergamer players would be able to dodge it everytime. Take as example a basilisk. All you need to do is learn his routine - he will spam petrify gaze till he petrify you, once per round. All you need is to come closer to him turned around via S key. Then wait till he use petrify gaze, attack and command your character to move back (either enough far away or with canceling attack command before as it often tends to keep attacking if you have many aprs, then just repeat till death. Very easy and thats how players on Arkhalia are fighting against creatures with powerful pulse abilities. They learn when they are using it and move away from them just before they start casting it, then go back perform attack with one flurry.

 

The issues you pointed out exists of course however, mostly they are clientside - character will be in fact still turned 180° from the enemy even he just performed AOO. And most of them does happen only in outnumber situation.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               MM,

I agree that one of the most annoying things in NWN's AI and user interface (and that of many games, IMO) is when the PC starts doing something on his own that you did not tell him to do and which, normally, is something that you would tell him to do if you actually wanted him to do it. My PC auto-attacking (which happens both in melee and ranged) when I was trying to remain invisible or stealthed has gotten me killed more than once on PWs. Honestly, I mostly hate that I can't "turn off" my PC's AoOs. Most of the time when I am not attacking something, it's because I don't want to be attacking it. And don't get me started on the path planning for PC movement!

On the other hand, this particular discussion isn't really about all of the issues with movement or combat that exist in NWN. The reality is that, whatever its other problems, NWN allows a player to have his PC face away from an opponent well enough to avoid effects that require eye-to-eye contact, which will be an issue if one is trying to implement facing requirements for things like gaze attacks. One can turn using the A or D keys, though it is slow, as you note. But, one can also turn by clicking on the ground at some point in the direction you want the PC to face and he will turn very quickly if that point is far enough away. I have had a character "run backwards" on PWs, but that is usually over short distances and I usually click far enough away that the PC turns and then runs (and then I just hit one of the movement keys to stop him if I really don't want him to run very far). I have the feeling that the backwards running is more a client / lag issue than something that is really happening as far as the game (server) is concerned, similar to the way a PC will sometimes appear to be running in place when he is standing still. Also, click-and-drag movement seems to turn the PC quickly.

Even if the PC turns back around to make and AoO, the player can turn him again quickly, though I certainly agree that it can take some vigilance to keep a PC turned away from opponents if they are in melee range. And, lag can be a real factor here, since a few seconds of lag can mean the PC was turned around long enough for an eye-to-eye attack to have occurred. But, for the most part, a player who is paying attention can turn his PC away from an opponent and keep him turned away pretty well.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Because you have this control in NWN, you can move your character anytime in game no matter which animation is he doing - attacking, spellcasting, taunt...

 

That's...simply not true.  You cannot break off the spellcasting animation during the "channel" which is particularly an issue for IGMS.

 

All you need is to come closer to him turned around via S key.

 

Unless you automatically decide to take an AoO or engage him in melee even without an AoO.

 

The issues you pointed out exists of course however, mostly they are clientside - character will be in fact still turned 180° from the enemy even he just performed AOO. And most of them does happen only in outnumber situation.

 

Are you suggesting that if you walk up to me from behind and I take an AoO on you that the game considers me facing away from you?

 

And yes, this is less common in a 1v1 situation where it's a lot easier to avoid these problems.  So if you're only intending to do it in 1v1 encounters, great, you can probably get away with it reasonably.  But presumably you'd want to be able to do this in general.

 

But, one can also turn by clicking on the ground at some point in the direction you want the PC to face and he will turn very quickly if that point is far enough away.

 

This is assuming that your PC doesn't suddenly decide to dance into a spot where that's suddenly very difficult.  Can you compensate?  Probably/usually, but still annoying.

 

And, lag can be a real factor here, since a few seconds of lag can mean the PC was turned around long enough for an eye-to-eye attack to have occurred. But, for the most part, a player who is paying attention can turn his PC away from an opponent and keep him turned away pretty well.

 

I suppose I fall into the camp of "The PC should NEVER die due to something out of their control (in terms of game mechanics)."  Yeah, I'd be willing to say you could probably successfully avoid 75%+ of gaze attacks in this manner.  But even a 5% chance of instantly dying/getting petrified/etc is simply unacceptable to me as a player and designer.

 

This is the kind of stuff I do in WoW, for example:

 

 

In comparison, trying to position/orient a character in NWN is like wading through molasses.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

 

Unless you automatically decide to take an AoO or engage him in melee even without an AoO.

You wont take AoO when creature is using special abilities like gaze is, the only time AoO could happen is if the creature would used ranged weapon/cast a normal spell (without ICC) on you and that will still not happen everytime but only from a short range, since spellcasting is once per 6seconds, sometimes 3seconds its not happening so often, if the creature would firing from range weapon than yes but this should not happen, first its bad design, second why would you want to do this against ranged weapon firing monster?

 

Anyway, point is that you can turn around very easily and very fast via mouse movement almost anytime when neccessary.  Okay I was wrong about spellcasting, there is really a channel but still that does not prevent to abuse the positioning to your advantage. I assure you that with a feature like this on gaze effects, a smart and experienced player would be able to dodge it every single time. Just as they are able to dodge pulse abilities simply by running away (with haste) in exact moment and then return back. Its a same mechanic and you can try it yourself.

1) make a creature that will have 10 pulse abilities, fire, cold whatever.

2) temporarily (since you dislike it) install my patch v 1.71

3) take a character with haste and go there and dodge the pulse abilities.

(again reminder why this is not possible in vanilla - in vanilla pulse abilities are casted on target and will be centered on target, even if that target runs away - the pulse ability in queve will be cast and appear centered on the target and damage him wherever he is - in my patch pulse abilities are self-casted centered on ability owner and hits only those who are in short radius)

 

You will find out its very easy actually and same method could be used vs gaze abilities monsters but even without haste (its possible to dodge pulse abilities even without haste, but much more difficult and require move in move back method or harming the monster after she cast a pulse ability so AI runs and give command to use new pulse which gets into queve as she cant do any actions till new round). With melee/ranged weapon its extremely easy, with spellcasting a bit difficult and only possible if you are hasted and creature is not hasted, but possible.

 

 

Are you suggesting that if you walk up to me from behind and I take an AoO on you that the game considers me facing away from you?

Im not sure if I understand. But it happens on your commands. Yes if you try to move away from a target with a single mouse click and then you get AoO, your character will cancel that command, turn around and attack target. However, if you spam the mouse clicks to get away, the AoO will be executed but your character wont turn back, he wont even play attack animation. Same situation happens when you first use mouse click to cancel your current action like attack and turn around from your target and then you use W key to move forward.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

 Take as example a basilisk. All you need to do is learn his routine - he will spam petrify gaze till he petrify you, once per round. All you need is to come closer to him turned around via S key.

 

The basilisk might be a poor example.  It's AI is set to use the 10m petrification gaze when it gets within 20m of the target.  It is pretty easy to figure out that standing still until the basilisk runs out of gazes allows you to never be hit by one.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

You wont take AoO when creature is using special abilities like gaze is

 

As I've said above, I'm not just thinking "1v1" situations.  It might be a basilisk with some other monsters and one of the OTHER monsters will run up and trigger the AoO.

 

second why would you want to do this against ranged weapon firing monster?

 

I'm not even sure what this means?  Clarify?

 

Its a same mechanic and you can try it yourself.

 

I don't doubt you.  But I'm not only thinking of default abilities -- could easily made the radius of the pulse bigger or use a scripted gaze type attack that isn't an actual ability per se.

 

However, if you spam the mouse clicks to get away, the AoO will be executed but your character wont turn back, he wont even play attack animation.

 

Sure.  But the idea that have to potentially be spam clicking like that is my point -- NWN is not set up well for this and I suspect more people will simply be frustrated by this type of mechanic.