Author Topic: Potions?  (Read 652 times)

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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Potions?
« on: October 25, 2014, 11:28:31 pm »


               

Generally speaking I don't like potions.  If a module requires you to drug yourself up in every event just to give you more than a 50% chance to survive/gain xp, I generally don't like it.


 


On the otherhand, if you need to quest for a potion, or to get ingredients for a particular potion to survive a particular encounter, that is more than acceptable.  This is roleplay.


 


In the OC, I do remember that the more lethal traps were a DC +1 greater than a Rogues max skill level with disable device and with an Int 14.  I didn't mind obtaining potions of intelligence for these traps because this was about using ...er.... intelligence. 


 


What I dislike is that it is a given in some circles that characters will always be tooled up to the maximum for every encounter.  For example, this is the one real failing of Swordflight 2 imho, which is otherwise totally exceptional.  Personally I would rate SF2 better than Darkness over Daggerford so far, which I consider very similar in theme and style.


 


Views on potions?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Potions?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2014, 01:05:04 am »


               

Speaking of PWs.


 


Common tactic on low magic worlds is to buff yourself with all of these potions till you get maximum roll (which on servers without CPP isnt that hard to achieve due to existing exploit) and only then go into action. I dont like this, its like abusing the fact that items are very limited and less powerful, so its low magic but even chars at lvl 20 ends up with maxed (+12) stats.


 


Opposite, which is often seen on high magic PvP/grind focused servers, you get potions for almost free price that buffs you with +12 stat, weapon enhancement, +20 AC, stoneskin and then you just go and instakilling absolutely stupid mobs who cant hit you and damage you. The only one server I withstand this was Higher Grounds where this wasnt that absurd as monsters were balanced on this fact and potions had balanced cost so it wanst just brainless farming.


 


Personally I think potions are very useful item, many players dont like them because they have to pay them and they disappear after use but if you allow to craft them (and not by that stupid vanilla potion brewing) things get more interesting and fun.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Potions?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2014, 05:34:57 am »


               


For example, this is the one real failing of Swordflight 2 imho, which is otherwise totally exceptional.  Personally I would rate SF2 better than Darkness over Daggerford so far, which I consider very similar in theme and style.




 


The thing with Swordflight (and I've discussed this with Rogueknight and hopefully he'll show up here) is that usually healing needed doesn't even remotely match healing available in most modules.  In the original campaign, for example, you might not even NEED a potion past the first few levels and yet not only do you find a bunch, you have unlimited quantities available cheaply from the vendor.  And thus it a matter of maybe keeping like 10 of the most current potions and basically never needing them -- which also means there's basically no challenge because you have to put no effort into surviving.


 


Without something that makes mobs deadly over time, all you have to do is survive and due to the plentiful cheap healing this is incredibly simple to do.  Healing, as a result, becomes completely meaningless.


 


To make healing meaningful, you need to do one of two things.  Drastically reduce the amount of healing available or drastically increase the amount of healing needed.


 


One method is simply to make most healing unavailable so the little you have is precious -- though this means you can get stuck in an impossible stuff if you expend it too quickly.  This can mean either limited potion supplies or very expensive potions or both (ditto for healing kits).


 


The other method is to make the player actually USE those potions constantly.  It means there's more to do in combat besides AFK auto attack and you need to constantly manage your healing supplies (which includes restocking and making potion management a significant economic factor).  Or just all the way like I did in Siege of the Heavens and say "Here, have unlimited healing...but good luck surviving because if you aren't smart you'll repeatedly die despite having that."  But that requires special mechanics which is unusual -- and Swordflight is a more traditional module.


 


These same arguments apply to buff potions as well.


 


So as you might guess, Swordflight decided to embrace potions.  Make them expected to be used, make them an actual economic consideration, have less focus on constantly getting more powerful items and more focus on temporary consumables.  It might not be to everyone's taste who isn't used to actually NEEDING to heal constantly, but it's not a universal failing by any means.  And Swordflight 2 is far superior to Darkness (at least the part of DoD I've played so far).


 


On a related note, this reminds me of a conversation I had with Savant.  I had made a new version of the final boss battle which he tried on his overpowered general testing character and loved it.  Then he tried it on a normal character and thought it was way too hard.  Why?  Because he had to use like 10-15 potions of Heal and he didn't expect to need more than like 5ish.


 


Of course, he provided a merchant with unlimited Heal potions and I walked into the encounter with over 150 Heal potions (and my companions all had that many as well).


 


It was an interesting perspective -- given how much healing was available, 10-15 potions was nothing for me...but it seemed insanely much to him.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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Potions?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2014, 06:49:40 am »


               Usually, my epic toons will tend to have a couple stacks of healing potions. But, I generally don't expect to go through many of them, even in boss battles. The exception being when running a reciprocal damage mage (particularly one without immunity to crits). And, I admit I have gotten used to PWs where there are no unlimited healing potions, those that exist are capped at 250 HP, and resting is limited in both frequency and location (so no free healing by just resting after every fight). So, the other day when my druid toon shifted into earth elemental form and basically got stuck (unable to run away) fighting nearly every monster on the map while my partner was taking a dirt nap, I went through every heal I had before I finished off the baddies. Admittedly, I might have been a little overly generous in giving away found heal pots to other characters earlier in that toon's career (basically before he was able to tank well and didn't get into situations where he would go through that many). But, I walked away thinking how tough that encounter had been since I had gone through about 12 heals! :-)

Actually, to me, it's really the use or expected use of other types of potions that is more of an issue. It makes a real difference if a module is designed for a PC who is buffed up to an extra 2-4 AB, AC, saves, and damage before each encounter. I tend not to play that way, largely because I get bored restocking a giant pile of consumables every time I get back to a shop. Unless it's a tough boss fight, I get the impression that my toon is Dr Feelgood if he spends several rounds juicing before he wades into battle. If the module author expected that I would take several potions before every fight, those encounters are probably going to be tougher for my toons than he expected.

But, I also don't rely on potion buffs much (this is module-specific, to be sure) because any encounter with a caster is one where my toon is likely to be hit by a dispel and then all of those low-caster-level potion buffs go poof! How much debuffing a caster should do to a given opponent is one of those areas of asymmetry between NPC and PC casters. A PC caster has to survive the next dozen fights. He can't waste spells debuffing every enemy minion who swallows a Barkskin potion and it won't do much good anyway because the next idiot is likely to buff himself the same way. So, he reasonably saves debuffs for bosses. But, to an NPC, the PC's party is the boss encounter. An NPC caster doesn't need to survive even this one encounter. In game terms, he doesn't worry about the next party of adventurers coming down the tunnel. He may as well debuff anyone he can, because he will be dead anyway, but it will benefit his allies further on.

So, I tend to save potions for fights where I suspect a tough challenge or for a particular purpose where I need a boost, e.g. a trap where my toon needs that potion of Fox's Cunning or a scripted challenge where my toon needs at least an ability of X to move forward.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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Potions?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2014, 11:23:47 am »


               


The thing with Swordflight (and I've discussed this with Rogueknight and hopefully he'll show up here) is that usually healing needed doesn't even remotely match healing available in most modules.  In the original campaign, for example, you might not even NEED a potion past the first few levels and yet not only do you find a bunch, you have unlimited quantities available cheaply from the vendor.  And thus it a matter of maybe keeping like 10 of the most current potions and basically never needing them -- which also means there's basically no challenge because you have to put no effort into surviving.


 


Without something that makes mobs deadly over time, all you have to do is survive and due to the plentiful cheap healing this is incredibly simple to do.  Healing, as a result, becomes completely meaningless.


 


To make healing meaningful, you need to do one of two things.  Drastically reduce the amount of healing available or drastically increase the amount of healing needed.


 


One method is simply to make most healing unavailable so the little you have is precious -- though this means you can get stuck in an impossible stuff if you expend it too quickly.  This can mean either limited potion supplies or very expensive potions or both (ditto for healing kits).


 


The other method is to make the player actually USE those potions constantly.  It means there's more to do in combat besides AFK auto attack and you need to constantly manage your healing supplies (which includes restocking and making potion management a significant economic factor).  Or just all the way like I did in Siege of the Heavens and say "Here, have unlimited healing...but good luck surviving because if you aren't smart you'll repeatedly die despite having that."  But that requires special mechanics which is unusual -- and Swordflight is a more traditional module.


 


These same arguments apply to buff potions as well.


 


So as you might guess, Swordflight decided to embrace potions.  Make them expected to be used, make them an actual economic consideration, have less focus on constantly getting more powerful items and more focus on temporary consumables.  It might not be to everyone's taste who isn't used to actually NEEDING to heal constantly, but it's not a universal failing by any means.  And Swordflight 2 is far superior to Darkness (at least the part of DoD I've played so far).


 


On a related note, this reminds me of a conversation I had with Savant.  I had made a new version of the final boss battle which he tried on his overpowered general testing character and loved it.  Then he tried it on a normal character and thought it was way too hard.  Why?  Because he had to use like 10-15 potions of Heal and he didn't expect to need more than like 5ish.


 


Of course, he provided a merchant with unlimited Heal potions and I walked into the encounter with over 150 Heal potions (and my companions all had that many as well).


 


It was an interesting perspective -- given how much healing was available, 10-15 potions was nothing for me...but it seemed insanely much to him.




With Swordflight 2, I am finding it a bit tedious to have to buff up with potions before every single fight (sometimes scrolls too, as I am a Bard), which is slightly spoiling an otherwise highly enjoyable module.  Next time, I think I might cheat, and after the first module, save the character and buy a Drow Piwafi Cloak, and a Lesser Ring of Power.  That should negate the need for most potions, reduce preparation time before fights and increase my enjoyment of this otherwise superior module. 


 


I personally find Swordflight 2 a bigger, more interesting, but a far more difficult variant of Darkness Over Daggerford, in that both have a general overall story arc, but with many side quests, some of which are related to the main plot.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Potions?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2014, 03:28:44 pm »


               

My module has the following potion policy.


While many of the regular potions are freely available in most shops, some of the strongest one (including also Heal potions) are unavailable or very rare (by rare I don't mean they are present in a single location, but available all the time there, but rather that the opportunity of encountering them in a shop is low).


Generally, the only certain way of getting them is brewing them yourself (with the standard Brew Potion feat that can be used for spells of any level) or obtaining/buying them from someone who did so.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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Potions?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2014, 03:52:46 pm »


               


My module has the following potion policy.


While many of the regular potions are freely available in most shops, some of the strongest one (including also Heal potions) are unavailable or very rare (by rare I don't mean they are present in a single location, but available all the time there, but rather that the opportunity of encountering them in a shop is low).


Generally, the only certain way of getting them is brewing them yourself (with the standard Brew Potion feat that can be used for spells of any level) or obtaining/buying them from someone who did so.




What's your module?


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bhaelrot

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Potions?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2014, 05:04:19 pm »


               

For me I guess it really depends on the module itself. While I tend to agree with the tedious necessity of being forced obtain, carry and consume a variety of potions like a clanking and drunken pharmacological burro of sloshy impervious expertise and destruction, if the environment supports it and the module mechanics are relatively transparent enough to encourage me to play that way, then I don't find it bad at all.  


 


On the other hand, if such is the environment and setting, I would probably prefer to quest/grind/craft an item that bestows the necessary buff instead. In my opinion such a method lends itself to more immersive game play.


 


Either way is fine with me as long as I do not have to experience too many repeated agonizing defeats, death or dismemberment to discover such necessities.




               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

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Potions?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2014, 08:45:00 pm »


               
 





With Swordflight 2, I am finding it a bit tedious to have to buff up with potions before every single fight (sometimes scrolls too, as I am a Bard), which is slightly spoiling an otherwise highly enjoyable module...





 


I can understand why you would feel this way, though even without potions being a factor playing classes like Bard or Cleric will tend to involve a lot of potentially tedious buffing. Actually, in one way playing these classes might be less tedious in Swordflight (with its severe limitations on rest) than in a very difficult but otherwise more conventional module, in which one easily could (and thus arguably should) rest and rebuff after every single encounter. Likewise in a more conventional module, I at leasst tend to find collecting and managing potions even more of a nuisance since most of them provide tons and tons of readily available potions and similar consumable items yet 99% of the time they turn out to be completely redundant and unneccessary and just clutter one's inventory to no purpose. It is rather absurd to provide unlimited healing on rest AND the ability to teleport back to a temple and get healed at any time AND more healing potions than one could ever need, yet something rather like that sometimes seems to be be the NWN standard. If one is going to provide masses of potions (as any standard NWN module in fact does) one might as well make them useful (or so I figured, at any rate).


 


There a lot of buffs in NWN that can potentially make a huge difference to one's capabilities, so there are few choices for a module builder who does not want to encourage their frequent use. You can either make combat so laughably easy that they are unnecessary, or change the mechanics of the game in a fundamental way, with the latter often being a massive and impractical enterprise (at least for single player modules, where I am inclined to think it unreasonable to expect players to learn a completely new rule system for each one they download). The importance of buffing in Swordflight is to a great extent simply the natural consequence of making many encounters difficult enough that every little bit helps.


 


By contrast, healing resources were made finite (though by old school standards still quite plentiful) by conscious design, so as to make strategic resource management an element adding more depth to the game. In more modern RPGs, resource management tends to be purely tactical (typically once an encounter is over one can easily return to full hit points, mana, or whatever), so this is certainly more of an "old school RPG" approach than what many players these days have become accustomed to so I am not surprised that many people find such a system a bit difficult to get used to. I am not denying that there are a few disadvantages to the way I do things in Swordflight  (restricted rest + making limited use items important), but I think it has the following advantages (at least, may think of more later), that at least to my mind make it worth putting up with:


 


1) As already stated, it adds more strategic depth. One does not only need to think about how to win a given encounter, but how one's expenditure of resources in that encounter will affect one long term.


 


2) It makes even routine encounters meaningful. With unlimited healing available after every encounter, every encounter will tend to be either a desperate, all-out struggle, or a rather pointless exercise that poses no threat to the player whatever. With consumables important yet limited, even an encounter in which a player is unlikely to be killed still requires him to pay attention and play tactically, lest he end up expending more resources than he wants to on it.


 


3) Balancing for different classes is made easier. You can make an encounter that is especially hard for Class A, yet less so for Class B in the expectation that A will use extra resources to overcome it. Then another type of encounter might be easier for A yet harder for B, meaning that in that case A spends fewer resources than B, roughly balancing things.


 


4) Game elements like instant death attacks, monster powers incapacitating the player with fear, etc., can be made a meaningful part of the game. In a more conventional NWN module you will either have items granting immunity to such things (making them essentially pointless) or else a player will have no way of dealing with them aside from hoping he gets lucky and makes his save. By making it possible to protect oneself from such effects, but only with limited use items, such powers can be made tactically interesting.


 


5) It helps avoid the excesses of a high magic monty haul. If I hand out as loot items with a higher bonus than what the player had previously, than I need to balance every subsequent encounter on the assumption that players have such items (hard to do in a very non-linear module like Swordflight). I also need to have subsequent quests hand out even better loot, in a vicious cycle, if players are to be expected to still find it interesting. By making limited use items important, one can give out significant loot that has an important effect on the game, but without necessarily radically altering the module's balance in perpetuity.


 




Next time, I think I might cheat, and after the first module, save the character and buy a Drow Piwafi Cloak, and a Lesser Ring of Power.  That should negate the need for most potions, reduce preparation time before fights and increase my enjoyment of this otherwise superior module...





 


You are certainly free to play in whatever fashion you find most enjoyable, but from what I have said above it should be clear that you risk substantially altering the sort of RPG expereince I designed, particularly by bringing in a regeneration item or anything else that provides unlimited healing.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Potions?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2014, 11:14:37 pm »


               


What's your module?




 


If you're asking about its name, then I'll inform you that it's still in the making and not released yet.


If you're asking about its genre, then I'll say it's something similar to PWs, but focused on single and LAN (up to about 5, 6 players), with content difficult to implement should it be designed to be hosted all the time and for a large number of players.


In short, a single or local multiplayer sandbox module with features like open world, random quests, random events, etc.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2014, 11:57:17 am »


               


If you're asking about its name, then I'll inform you that it's still in the making and not released yet.


If you're asking about its genre, then I'll say it's something similar to PWs, but focused on single and LAN (up to about 5, 6 players), with content difficult to implement should it be designed to be hosted all the time and for a large number of players.


In short, a single or local multiplayer sandbox module with features like open world, random quests, random events, etc.




Thanks for replying.  Look forward to it.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2014, 12:10:38 pm »


               


 


 


 

 


I can understand why you would feel this way, though even without potions being a factor playing classes like Bard or Cleric will tend to involve a lot of potentially tedious buffing. Actually, in one way playing these classes might be less tedious in Swordflight (with its severe limitations on rest) than in a very difficult but otherwise more conventional module, in which one easily could (and thus arguably should) rest and rebuff after every single encounter. Likewise in a more conventional module, I at leasst tend to find collecting and managing potions even more of a nuisance since most of them provide tons and tons of readily available potions and similar consumable items yet 99% of the time they turn out to be completely redundant and unneccessary and just clutter one's inventory to no purpose. It is rather absurd to provide unlimited healing on rest AND the ability to teleport back to a temple and get healed at any time AND more healing potions than one could ever need, yet something rather like that sometimes seems to be be the NWN standard. If one is going to provide masses of potions (as any standard NWN module in fact does) one might as well make them useful (or so I figured, at any rate).


 


There a lot of buffs in NWN that can potentially make a huge difference to one's capabilities, so there are few choices for a module builder who does not want to encourage their frequent use. You can either make combat so laughably easy that they are unnecessary, or change the mechanics of the game in a fundamental way, with the latter often being a massive and impractical enterprise (at least for single player modules, where I am inclined to think it unreasonable to expect players to learn a completely new rule system for each one they download). The importance of buffing in Swordflight is to a great extent simply the natural consequence of making many encounters difficult enough that every little bit helps.


 


By contrast, healing resources were made finite (though by old school standards still quite plentiful) by conscious design, so as to make strategic resource management an element adding more depth to the game. In more modern RPGs, resource management tends to be purely tactical (typically once an encounter is over one can easily return to full hit points, mana, or whatever), so this is certainly more of an "old school RPG" approach than what many players these days have become accustomed to so I am not surprised that many people find such a system a bit difficult to get used to. I am not denying that there are a few disadvantages to the way I do things in Swordflight  (restricted rest + making limited use items important), but I think it has the following advantages (at least, may think of more later), that at least to my mind make it worth putting up with:


 


1) As already stated, it adds more strategic depth. One does not only need to think about how to win a given encounter, but how one's expenditure of resources in that encounter will affect one long term.


 


2) It makes even routine encounters meaningful. With unlimited healing available after every encounter, every encounter will tend to be either a desperate, all-out struggle, or a rather pointless exercise that poses no threat to the player whatever. With consumables important yet limited, even an encounter in which a player is unlikely to be killed still requires him to pay attention and play tactically, lest he end up expending more resources than he wants to on it.


 


3) Balancing for different classes is made easier. You can make an encounter that is especially hard for Class A, yet less so for Class B in the expectation that A will use extra resources to overcome it. Then another type of encounter might be easier for A yet harder for B, meaning that in that case A spends fewer resources than B, roughly balancing things.


 


4) Game elements like instant death attacks, monster powers incapacitating the player with fear, etc., can be made a meaningful part of the game. In a more conventional NWN module you will either have items granting immunity to such things (making them essentially pointless) or else a player will have no way of dealing with them aside from hoping he gets lucky and makes his save. By making it possible to protect oneself from such effects, but only with limited use items, such powers can be made tactically interesting.


 


5) It helps avoid the excesses of a high magic monty haul. If I hand out as loot items with a higher bonus than what the player had previously, than I need to balance every subsequent encounter on the assumption that players have such items (hard to do in a very non-linear module like Swordflight). I also need to have subsequent quests hand out even better loot, in a vicious cycle, if players are to be expected to still find it interesting. By making limited use items important, one can give out significant loot that has an important effect on the game, but without necessarily radically altering the module's balance in perpetuity.


 

 

 


You are certainly free to play in whatever fashion you find most enjoyable, but from what I have said above it should be clear that you risk substantially altering the sort of RPG expereince I designed, particularly by bringing in a regeneration item or anything else that provides unlimited healing.



 




I've been playing a Bard/RDD, focusing on melee more than anything.  I use spells to buff myself up, but am not as good in melee as a straight fighter.  However, the greater amount and range of skills has made the character more interesting.


 


Money was tight at first, but once you gain and sell a few uber items, then buying potions and scrolls is no longer an economic issue.


Anyway, I now have put my potions in quick slots, and having downloaded Paths of Ascension, potion count can pass 10, which means I don't need potions of endurance in several slots.


 


As I said before, this is a superb module, the best I've played in a long time.  It's on par with A Dance with Rogues, and without the sleaze, which I personally prefer.


 


Thank you.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2014, 06:29:27 pm »


               


As I said before, this is a superb module, the best I've played in a long time.  It's on par with A Dance with Rogues, and without the sleaze, which I personally prefer.


 


Thank you.




 


You are very welcome. I am glad you like it.


 


Also, to clarify my earlier remark a little, if someone wants to play with a Piwafwi cloak for damage resistance it would not be a big deal, just something to make the module a little easier (and if someone is finding it so unreasonably hard it is ruining their enjoyment I might actually encourage something of the sort). I am a bit more leery of bringing in something like a regeneration item, since that would arguably constitute a qualitative rather than merely quantitative alteration in the type of difficulty, though of course some people might not care about that.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2014, 08:30:41 pm »


               


You are very welcome. I am glad you like it.


 


Also, to clarify my earlier remark a little, if someone wants to play with a Piwafwi cloak for damage resistance it would not be a big deal, just something to make the module a little easier (and if someone is finding it so unreasonably hard it is ruining their enjoyment I might actually encourage something of the sort). I am a bit more leery of bringing in something like a regeneration item, since that would arguably constitute a qualitative rather than merely quantitative alteration in the type of difficulty, though of course some people might not care about that.




Well my game crashed, apparently it's to do with my graphics card, so I did try it with both the cloak and ring.  Truth be told, it hasn't really changed anything, except against goblin missile fire outside the city, which I probably would have survived anyway, and the 5hp reduction on fire damage per fire attack from certain insects, almost certainly saved my life once.  The regeneration aspect had next to no impact as I was a 5th level bard when starting.  My MO was pretty straight forward.  Finishing Swordflight 1 I was a level 5 Bard, with spells Magic Weapon, P from E, Mage Armour & Identify at level 1, Bulls Strength, Invisibility and Eagles Splendour at level 2. Reconnaissance while invisible and buffed up, then back to my room to sleep before returning to fight the monsters works.


 


Great module.   


               
               

               
            

Legacy_icywind1980

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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2014, 08:44:06 pm »


               

I love potions! It's my fave part of playing Harper Scout. Hero in a bottle I say, and the more the merrier!