Author Topic: Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)  (Read 1442 times)

Legacy_MrZork

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2014, 08:29:48 pm »


               

Casting a NEB on an undead race polymorphed player is not the exploit. Its the casting of the spell in polymorph which doesnt possess any spells. Obviously you cant cast NEB on yourself and we are talking here about an OC and not a PW where someone else might cast it on you. So the only way to do this is to abuse an exploit and cast the NEB after you polymorph into zombie which is not possible normally and is definitely an exploit. Exploit the Bioware tried to stop - see the commend above ClearAllActions line in polymorph self spell script - but havent tied all loose ends.


But of course, you might be one of the no-cheating in singleplayer camp, so it wont matter to you.



So, you consider any spellcasting while polymorphed, even when triggered before the polymorph, to be abusing an exploit. Fair enough.


BTW, I am not among those who think there is no reasonable definition of cheating in single-player. I don't think the term has the broader moral implications in SP that it does in MP, but it can be meaningfully defined for both.



Back on topic, I haven't yet seen a spellsword build that most people would characterize as "kickass" in both spellcasting and melee, particularly in pre-epics. However, the Bioware campaigns are very forgiving in that regard. Between frequent rests and buffing, a pure or near-pure mage can melee with most mobs and some bosses. Just be aware that a non-pure mage won't likely be casting level 9 spells by the end of the OC.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MannyJabrielle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 01:39:45 am »


               


or *gulp*... True Strike for a round and a half at a clip (which btw cannot be stilled either in pre-epic).




 


True strike can't be stilled because it doesn't need to be stilled.  It doesn't have a somatic (wavey hands) component, so it doesn't incur spell failure from armor and/or shields.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Aelis Eine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 02:06:16 am »


               I'd say install the PrC or play NWN2 with Kaedrin's pack and play a Spellsword. What you want can't really be done in Vanilla.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Elhanan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 12:03:30 pm »


               It is an older build, but one that aided me into making Mages more durable, versatile, and enjoyable: The Melee Mage

http://home.comcast....ild301814.html
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 03:52:33 pm »


               

Bogdanov, I have a good build for you. Its not what you want exactly but its perfect spellsword type of build that I played once on a PW with quite a success.


 


Its sorcerer/monk spellfist. Its a build which rely on basically all abilities and buffs but its very versatile and has lots of attacks. Now I played this on vanilla server where was just powerful gloves, but if you play with community patch this build can be even more powerfull if you enable the BOOST_GLOVES switch. Then you can cast (greater) magic weapon and flame blade on your gloves. I wouldnt recommend kamas because they are very feat consuming. Instead get Circle Kick (provided you are running game via NWNCX with CPP) and you get one more attack everytime you are surrounded.


 


Basically you start as a sorcerer and play normally until level 5 where you take a first monk level and then you can go melee. In my build I used also few paladin leves for Divine Might and Divine Shield but in a 20lvl environment this doesnt have much sense, but 1level of paladin can get handy for the saving throw bonuses and +1bab (which second monk level provides as well with deflect arrows feat).


 


So probably, for OC it might be better to build it as a wizard/monk and once you get enough spellcasting you can take Shou Disciple prestige class from CPP for higher unarmed damage.


 


So basically:


1-3 wizard


4: monk


5-X wizard


X shou


 


race: elf best suited but any except halforc


stats: dexterity 15+, strength 10 or 12, intelligence 16, constitution 12, wisdom 14, charisma 8 +-


 


Specialize into illusion school, and get: silent spell, extend spell, empower spell, maximize spell (silent first will enable to cast more time 1.lvl offensive spells) then the weapon finesse, circle kick, weapon focus (unarmed) and dodge if you intent to take the Shou Disciple class. Except that: toughness, improved critical (will be available quite late unfortunately)



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2014, 08:11:07 pm »


               


Before i start i just gotta say i read about 10+ various guides on making different spell blades and god knows how many fighter+wizard+X char builds - but one thing that i really am missing in those guides is the actual focus on both CASTING damaging/evil/nasty spells AND hacking away with melee weapons.


I do wanna use spell buffs for melee fighting but i don't want to neglect using my badass nuking spells and crowd controls.


 


I mostly play the original campaigns (bioware made) with my brother over internet (no pvp), so the character i wanna make does not need to be "super uber strong" - but i do want to make at least a decent character that goes up to level 20 for now and can stand on his own.


 


I am trying to build a heavily armored melee (2handed and/or 1h+shield) character that cast even the highest levels of wizard/sorcerer spells during that combat (and in heavy armor).


As you guessed it, this is just for fun and not for any kind of world record breaking... except maybe in silliness!


 


What i (as a complete noob) thought of was something like this:


 


- Wizard/Sorcerer that can do all high level spells (at least 1 lvl9 spell), also using A LOT of Still Spell (for heavy armor) and probably constant use of defensive casting to avoid AoO against me. I know i can not still spell level 9 spells without the epic auto-still-spell feat, but im making a plan for a lvl20 char (atm).


Much damaging spells, buffing spells and evil crowd control spells along side melee hacking!


 


- Almost no dexterity (full plate), no wisdom, no charisma, medium/high constitution, i guess 20 intellect, lots of strength?


 


- A couple of Fighter levels for the armor/weapon (using heaviest armor and big weapons or tower shield) feats and various combat feats like cleave and weapon spec - also to take feats for Weapon master if going that road.


 


- Potentially a couple/many of Weapon Master or Barbarian or Red Dragon Disciple levels, to get all the sweet feats that are worth taking.


 


- Definitely must reach at least 16 BAB for full 4 attacks per round at/before level 20, so that my epic levels keep the 4 attacks per round regardless of what epic class levels i take.


 


What i imagined is me casting big AOE spells or crowd controll spells both before and during the fight (in heavy armor) while hacking apart some FOOLS with my leet flaming weapon that does nasty crits (keen buff, maybe even weapon master feats) OR going bastard+tower like a baws.


 


Anyway, after all that ranting, what i am hoping for is that you experienced NWN character creators can give me some advice on how can i make this character as good as possible... or as least bad as possible...


 


Which feats do you suggest for me to take... which classes to pick up... how far into the improved crit/overwhelming crit feats to go in... do i take the spell focus/spell penetration feats...  any suggestion on the class levelin order... do i go for weapon master (need whirlwind an other stuff for it)... what epic feats would be good for this combat approach... how much do i put into STR/Con/Intel?


 


Either way thank you very much for reading through this silly post, and i greatly welcome any advice you can offer for this full-plate-caster thing i am attempting '<img'>




As stated before, you cannot have +16BAB at Level 20 and have level 9 spells.  You can have 3 basic attacks and level 9 spells or 4 attacks and level 8 spells.


However, you may want to try the following concept, the Half Elf Paladin/Sorceror/Arcane Archer.


 


Level 1 stats: Strength 14, Dexterity 14, Constitution 10, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 15 (20 at Level 20).


 


1.  Paladin 1.              Point Blank Shot.


2.  Paladin 2.


3.  Paladin 3.              Rapid Shot


4.  Paladin 4.             +1 Charisma.


5.  Paladin 5.


6.  Paladin 6.              Weapon Focus Longbow


7.  Sorceror 1.            Take True Strike and Identify. True Strike can be used wearing armour without penalty.


8.  Arcane Archer 1.  +1 Charisma.


9.  Arcane Archer 2.  Improved Critical Longbow.  Getting to this stage can be difficult, but life becomes much easier with double critical damage and 3 fireballs.


10. Arcane Archer 3.


11. Arcane Archer 4.


12. Arcane Archer 5.  Power Attack as required for Divine Might. +1 Charisma.


13. Arcane Archer 6.


14. Arcane Archer 7.


15. Paladin 7.             Divine Might.


16. Arcane Archer 8. +1 Charisma.


17. Arcane Archer 9.


18. Paladin 8.             Divine Shield


19. Paladin 9.             Because +3 from your Divine Favour spell is better than the Arrow of Death in my experience.   


20. Arcane Archer 10. +1 Charisma.


 


First the good news.  In the OC you get four really useful pieces of henchmen kit giving you +4 strength, + 4 dexterity and +9 charisma.  These are free.  By level 20 you can pick up a +3 Charisma cloak, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, +3 Composite Longbow and Boots of Haste relatively easily.  You should have money to buy magical arrows as well.


 


Normally, this means that you will be shooting 6 arrows a round, hitting at +19BAB +5AA bonus, +3 from the bow and +3 from dexterity, and -2 for using Quick Draw.


That's a mighty +28.  If every arrow hits, excluding criticals (which could raise the damage significantly) you will be doing damage averaging 81 hitpoints per round, and is without using magical arrows that would do an extra 21points per round a round.


 


Now for the really good news.  With True Strike your arrows for one round will rarely miss.  With Divine Favour and Divine Might running, you get a further 14 damage per arrow, therefore 84 extra damage if all hit (more if any hits are criticals).  That's an average of 165.  Divine Might will last for 11 rounds (Charisma is 32) and Divine Favour for 10, so that you will have 9 effect rounds with these two running.  Even without True Strike and Divine Favour, you will still be doing an extra +11 per arrow for an average of 147 per round for 9 rounds.  A level 20 wizard can do more concentrated damage with maximised Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, but a wizard will quickly run out of those.   


 


Unfortunately there is bad news, and that is in getting the character up to level 20.  I really missed having the cleave feat, especially a low levels.  It was often the case of halving your melee hits per round.   As a Paladin I normally take power attack and cleave at level 1 (I usually play human), weapon focus in longsword at level 3 and divine might at level 6 (in the OC at least as level 6 when you can get henchmen items).  Further warrior types are rewarded far less experience than other classes.  For example, when starting the OC, when I go back to finish off the goblins in the prelude, I only get 17 for each kill.  A Cleric gets 75 and a wizard 42 iirc.  Once you reach level 9, it becomes much easier, with your improved critical and 3 fireballs, but until then, I found life hard while testing this character concept.  If I had not been played the OC a gazillion times before, and had not the stone of recall, I would have died numerous times.  I normally play with a lower dexterity and this hurt my strength, especially for carrying objects.  This was negated by bags of holding at higher levels, once money was less tight.


 


Some modules are easier.  In Kingmaker you are forced to take two henchmen and these can act as a barrier between you and the target, so they are effectively pinned down.  


 


Further, there is another consideration to take into account.  By focusing on charisma, you will never gain the awesome Devastating Critical feat.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2014, 10:19:44 pm »


               


As stated before, you cannot have +16BAB at Level 20 and have level 9 spells.  You can have 3 basic attacks and level 9 spells or 4 attacks and level 8 spells.


However, you may want to try the following concept, the Half Elf Paladin/Sorceror/Arcane Archer.


 


Level 1 stats: Strength 14, Dexterity 14, Constitution 10, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 15 (20 at Level 20).


 


1.  Paladin 1.              Point Blank Shot.


2.  Paladin 2.


3.  Paladin 3.              Rapid Shot


4.  Paladin 4.             +1 Charisma.


5.  Paladin 5.


6.  Paladin 6.              Weapon Focus Longbow


7.  Sorceror 1.            Take True Strike and Identify. True Strike can be used wearing armour without penalty.


8.  Arcane Archer 1.  +1 Charisma.


9.  Arcane Archer 2.  Improved Critical Longbow.  Getting to this stage can be difficult, but life becomes much easier with double critical damage and 3 fireballs.


10. Arcane Archer 3.


11. Arcane Archer 4.


12. Arcane Archer 5.  Power Attack as required for Divine Might. +1 Charisma.


13. Arcane Archer 6.


14. Arcane Archer 7.


15. Paladin 7.             Divine Might.


16. Arcane Archer 8. +1 Charisma.


17. Arcane Archer 9.


18. Paladin 8.             Divine Shield


19. Paladin 9.             Because +3 from your Divine Favour spell is better than the Arrow of Death in my experience.   


20. Arcane Archer 10. +1 Charisma.


 


First the good news.  In the OC you get four really useful pieces of henchmen kit giving you +4 strength, + 4 dexterity and +9 charisma.  These are free.  By level 20 you can pick up a +3 Charisma cloak, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, +3 Composite Longbow and Boots of Haste relatively easily.  You should have money to buy magical arrows as well.


 


Normally, this means that you will be shooting 6 arrows a round, hitting at +19BAB +5AA bonus, +3 from the bow and +3 from dexterity, and -2 for using Quick Draw.


That's a mighty +28.  If every arrow hits, excluding criticals (which could raise the damage significantly) you will be doing damage averaging 81 hitpoints per round, and is without using magical arrows that would do an extra 21points per round a round.


 


Now for the really good news.  With True Strike your arrows for one round will rarely miss.  With Divine Favour and Divine Might running, you get a further 14 damage per arrow, therefore 84 extra damage if all hit (more if any hits are criticals).  That's an average of 165.  Divine Might will last for 11 rounds (Charisma is 32) and Divine Favour for 10, so that you will have 9 effect rounds with these two running.  Even without True Strike and Divine Favour, you will still be doing an extra +11 per arrow for an average of 147 per round for 9 rounds.  A level 20 wizard can do more concentrated damage with maximised Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, but a wizard will quickly run out of those.   


 


Unfortunately there is bad news, and that is in getting the character up to level 20.  I really missed having the cleave feat, especially a low levels.  It was often the case of halving your melee hits per round.   As a Paladin I normally take power attack and cleave at level 1 (I usually play human), weapon focus in longsword at level 3 and divine might at level 6 (in the OC at least as level 6 when you can get henchmen items).  Further warrior types are rewarded far less experience than other classes.  For example, when starting the OC, when I go back to finish off the goblins in the prelude, I only get 17 for each kill.  A Cleric gets 75 and a wizard 42 iirc.  Once you reach level 9, it becomes much easier, with your improved critical and 3 fireballs, but until then, I found life hard while testing this character concept.  If I had not been played the OC a gazillion times before, and had not the stone of recall, I would have died numerous times.  I normally play with a lower dexterity and this hurt my strength, especially for carrying objects.  This was negated by bags of holding at higher levels, once money was less tight.


 


Some modules are easier.  In Kingmaker you are forced to take two henchmen and these can act as a barrier between you and the target, so they are effectively pinned down.  


 


Further, there is another consideration to take into account.  By focusing on charisma, you will never gain the awesome Devastating Critical feat.




A couple of points I failed to mention above.


 


If you take a Pixie familiar as a sorcerer, you gain some ability to pick locks and find traps.  However, the only thing you still really lack are thief skills.  This will hurt in some modules, eg A Dance With Rogues, where stealth is a paramount ability to survive.  


 


Sorcerer spells should be taken with consideration to usefulness at higher levels.  IMHO, only the Level 1 spells: Identify, True strike and Endure Elements remain valid at higher levels.  Endure Elements is a Paladin spell as well so the other two are usually a more preferable spell choice, especially when money is tight, and the c100gp to discover the actual piece of kit is harsh.. 


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Terrorble

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2014, 02:52:41 am »


               

I did a spellsword/heavy-armor caster once that I enjoyed a lot.  Problem for you is what was mentioned before: if you're trying to be a fighter and a wizard by level 20, you won't be much of either.  My build certainly didn't mature until at least level 30. 


 


It went generally like this: 6fighter/5WM/8wizard/1WM to get to level20.  Then continued wizard until I took my last WM level at 40 to max discipline and stuff like that.  Personally, I put a lot of stat points in intelligence to focus on the spell side of things.  Of course, the build needs still spell, and the epic still spell feats.  


 


Playing it was great.  I augmented my spell slots with haste and lesser spell breach wands, and a few different scrolls.  You could fight well with good damage and spells when needed, or switch to tenser's to really boost AB.


 


It's fundamental weakness had to be AC and hitpoints - still a mage at heart.  But with greater sanctuary, invisibility, darkness, damage shields, elemental protections, spell mantles, epic mage armor, epic warding, shadow shield, mind blank, prot from spells, etc. you could generally last long enough to get the job done.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2849
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2014, 09:21:35 am »


               

A 20-level melee mage would scoff at such a so-called "bad-ass" and use an indispellable, fully-buffed Tenser elf or Iron Golem to ravage a build like this.  An AA, typically weak unless tied to RDD, would be laying their back from a single successful forceful hand, That's why high-level mages get nerfed everywhere.  There is no counter.  Hit 'em and you die, miss 'em and you die.


 


Terrorble is right.  Diluting magical potential in a pre-epic build just gimps it.  The plate means nothing and Still spells clog up other more productive metamagic enhancements.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2014, 09:04:46 pm »


               


A 20-level melee mage would scoff at such a so-called "bad-ass" and use an indispellable, fully-buffed Tenser elf or Iron Golem to ravage a build like this.  An AA, typically weak unless tied to RDD, would be laying their back from a single successful forceful hand, That's why high-level mages get nerfed everywhere.  There is no counter.  Hit 'em and you die, miss 'em and you die.


 


Terrorble is right.  Diluting magical potential in a pre-epic build just gimps it.  The plate means nothing and Still spells clog up other more productive metamagic enhancements.




An AA is not weak in the OC.  Two Henchmen items giving up to +9 charisma prevents that with the Paladin AA with divine might.


 


The RDD option is really only available over L20 as an uber class.  This is because devastating critical is an epic feat and needs a shed load of other feats first, including an epic one.  Of course, that is assuming criticals work against the target you are shooting at.  With many creatures, Divine Might is the more reliable choice of dispatching said foes..


               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2849
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2014, 11:40:46 pm »


               


An AA is not weak in the OC.  Two Henchmen items giving up to +9 charisma prevents that with the Paladin AA with divine might.


 


The RDD option is really only available over L20 as an uber class.  This is because devastating critical is an epic feat and needs a shed load of other feats first, including an epic one.  Of course, that is assuming criticals work against the target you are shooting at.  With many creatures, Divine Might is the more reliable choice of dispatching said foes..




By "weak" I was referring to low STR (not to mention AA's historically lame Fort saves)... not damage potential... not killing power  Enchanted arrows alone provide sufficient ranged damage and DR penetration. But AA will need to stay focused on DEX because all the special ranged touch attacks use DEX for the DC (unless one decides to just pass on those) and to reach those lofty AB levels needed to vie with the highest AC targets.


 


There are NO weak builds in the OC, relatively speaking.  Optimized builds are not needed in a learning campaign.  However, with a max of 18 levels, every level multiclassed significantly detracts from the strengths of the primary class without the convenience of epic class levels to regain what was sacrificed during pre-epic. Skill dumps are one advantage, but that decision still comes at the cost of diluting the primary class.  Pick your poison and swallow.


 


Divine Might is strictly used for damage and has no effect on attack power.  Look to DEX for that consideration in any non-zen archer. Rather than using pally/sorc/AA, a cleric/arcane caster/AA is stronger yet, benefiting from not only the DM damage buff, but AB boosts that can easily reach the AB cap, Divine Power's full AB free attack and domain advantages, just to mention a few.  However, balancing damage-to-attack optimization is dependent on the environment.  Higher damage vs.mediocre AC foes or ultra AB vs. ultra AC targets (bosses & PvP).  Even using RDD, an AA's DevCrit DC (max of about 43 with capped STR items) pales when compared to any typical (STR-focused) DevCrit build with DC of 50+.



 


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2014, 09:07:53 pm »


               


By "weak" I was referring to low STR (not to mention AA's historically lame Fort saves)... not damage potential... not killing power  Enchanted arrows alone provide sufficient ranged damage and DR penetration. But AA will need to stay focused on DEX because all the special ranged touch attacks use DEX for the DC (unless one decides to just pass on those) and to reach those lofty AB levels needed to vie with the highest AC targets.


 


There are NO weak builds in the OC, relatively speaking.  Optimized builds are not needed in a learning campaign.  However, with a max of 18 levels, every level multiclassed significantly detracts from the strengths of the primary class without the convenience of epic class levels to regain what was sacrificed during pre-epic. Skill dumps are one advantage, but that decision still comes at the cost of diluting the primary class.  Pick your poison and swallow.


 


Divine Might is strictly used for damage and has no effect on attack power.  Look to DEX for that consideration in any non-zen archer. Rather than using pally/sorc/AA, a cleric/arcane caster/AA is stronger yet, benefiting from not only the DM damage buff, but AB boosts that can easily reach the AB cap, Divine Power's full AB free attack and domain advantages, just to mention a few.  However, balancing damage-to-attack optimization is dependent on the environment.  Higher damage vs.mediocre AC foes or ultra AB vs. ultra AC targets (bosses & PvP).  Even using RDD, an AA's DevCrit DC (max of about 43 with capped STR items) pales when compared to any typical (STR-focused) DevCrit build with DC of 50+.




My apologies for misunderstanding you.  Indeed you are correct in that the Half Elf Paladin option I posted is indeed weak in strength.


 


I had the same problem with Gladiatrix at low levels.  In that module, as I'm sure you know, you need to be a human level 1 fighter with a high charisma.  I thought we are looking for a Fighter/Paladin combo, and set out my feats accordingly to get divine might at level 6 and weapon specialisation in bastard sword at level 7.  However, getting to level 6 was difficult, because I had put 6 points into wisdom (to eventually gain level 4 paladin spells), which effected my strength.  The impact of this was feeling that I was playing a module for a character 1 level higher than I should be.  Sure, once I had reached level 6, and especially level 7, life became much easier. However, due to such experiences, I'm pretty sure some multiclass buils are not viable for many modules, simply because it would prove impossible to reach the higher levels.


 


An example of one that works in the OC, but not often elsewhere is the monk/wizard/palemaster.  You take wizard level 1, specifically to get the rod of frost that will get you into all those annoying chests, and give you the ability to kill (low hp creatures) fairly easily.  You take a monk level at level 2, to gain cleave, +2 on all saves, 5 ranks in tumble to give you +1 dodge ac, a further +2 dodge ac from 14 wis, some weird weapons and combat options, and the ability to use some useful extra robes and boots.  At level 3 and 4 you take wizard, and at level 5 you become a palemaster (to get +1 spell casting ability and +1 natural ac).  You then remain a wizard until level 16, giving you level 8 spells, and abilities and saving throws well beyond a straight L16 wizard.  At that point, life becomes steadily harder until level 21.  This is because to get BAB +11, ie 3 attacks per round, you will need to take 3 further levels in monk and another in PM.  At this level, the abilities gained are not fantastic or even really very good.  You do get better HD, and if you saved some skill points, +3 dodge ac from tumble at level 17 if you take monk at that level.  However, the ability to animate dead once per day from the level 2 PM class pales into insignificance next to another level 9 spell that a straight wizard gets.  A level 14 Wizard/level 1 Palemaster/Level 1 Monk is usually superior to a level 16 Wizard.  A level 14 wizard/L4 Monk/ L2 PM is not superior to a L20 Wizard most of the time.  However, come L21 life changes for the better.  Whether you take another level of wizard (for the bonus feat), or a level of PM (to get to L10 PM quicker), you gain another level of spell casting.  The next level you take the opposite option (PM at L22 if wizard at L21 or vice versa) and you are now casting level 9 spells. Now you can rise in levels in PM, perhaps taking a level of monk at L27, L32 and certainly L37.  Your level 40 PM20, Monk 5, wizard 15 will certainly be an extremely powerful character, but getting there is fraught with peril.


 


A specific example is in Revenge is Bitter Sweet, a module I've never been able to complete without dying a gazillion times.  Actually I've never completed it.  For this module I had to tailor a specific character to have a chance of winning.  In this case I chose an Elf Ranger as the starting point, ie stealth and search with decent hitting power.  I was going to add assassin at level 6 and 7, shadow dancer at level 8, and then continue as an assassin, with one more ranger level at some point to gain a spell and +1 BAB.  The module proved so difficult for me personally, that instead of going from level 5 ranger to level 1 assassin at level 6, I went to level 6 ranger, because that 2nd attack per round was so necessary.  It should be noted that I had cheated in this module by using the debugmode to get extra money for a haste item, and I still could not do this module.  I'm just less capable than I care to admit '<img'>.


 


This is why many of the 'perfect' builds are not so.


 


In another example, I cannot complete A Dance With Rogues without being primarily a rogue.  (Albeit your legs are invisible, an Elf Rogue16/Blackguard4 works really well,  perhaps even better than a Human Rogue14/Paladin2/Blackguard 4).


 


Builds need to be considered in context to the world they 'live' in, and the 'handlers' personality and intelligence.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Prizzard

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2014, 04:44:35 am »


               

Straight Stalwart Battle Sorcerer if anyone ever makes it a class