Sorcerer?RDD

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

Trolling when it is trolling is not an insult;  In this particular case I said that in a particular part of the discussion he was trolling and that he knew it.

If I recall correctly, you accused me of trolling when I said having Spot/Listen would suffice to counter HiPS rather than needing True Seeing.

It requires Keen Sense, yes, but since we're talking about players using it on NPCs giving the NPCs Keen Sense is quite easy.  And I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that clearly anything you didn't want to be HiPSed would have Keen Sense.  Obvious thing to do.

In other words, I wasn't trolling, I was correct -- and you were wrong.

WebShaman wrote...

Ranting is not name-calling, but a description for a type of activity (and in this case, quite true).  When one is throwing out insults, and other...things, then I would tend to call that ranting.

Kindly point out where I threw out an insult in this post.  That's the one you accused me of ranting in.

WebShaman wrote...

As MM is NOT in any way penitant, nor does he seem to realize that he has violated the Rules of Conduct (calling me an idiot is certainly not in jest, and it is not sarcasm, either) pretty much ends this for me.

The hilarious thing here is that I was clearly indicating I did *NOT* think you were an idiot.  To quote myself:

"If you're trying to get me to think you're suddenly an idiot, you're doing a VERY good job."

If I'm wondering if you're trying to make me think you're suddenly an idiot, clearly I *DON'T* think you're actually an idiot currently.

WebShaman wrote...

As MM also states that he does not consider this a discussion, then there is little point in continuing -. I would be typing to blind eyes.

I said I don't consider it a discussion because YOU are refusing to participate in an actual discussion.  Like you're doing *right now* by refusing to acknowledge my point in the previous post.  You're *still* evading points and trying to shift the topic to irrelevant and incorrect things.

But, since you won't be responding to me any further, at least this sets the record straight for anyone who might be confused (though I doubt anyone else is).

Also, I'll note that you evaded YET AGAIN and didn't respond to this part of rogueknight333's post:

rogueknight333 wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

...I also know of more than one adventure where this is also the case - much like adventure in a sandbox - where everything is accessable from the gitgo. This means that they should avoid those areas until they are powerful enough to do them...

Certainly this happens in non-linear sandbox-style adventures, but this is precisely because in that context these encounters are avoidable. Likewise in a situation where fleeing is a possible and expected strategy. Obviously these instances were not what I meant. I would suggest that your habit of frequently changing the subject to special cases like this is one of thebreasons why Magical Master is getting annoyed with your apparent evasiveness.

               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 13 février 2014 - 09:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               It might indeed be good not to say more, at least until tempers cool, but a few (possibly final) comments:

WebShaman wrote...
First of all, this assumes that it is foolish, careless, and that the person in question does not understand what they are doing.  This is not always the case.  It is much better to leave these types of absolutes out of the discussion.

You are the one who introduced absolutes into the discussion, insisting that throwing everything but the kitchen sink into one's override folder will always add to the game, and not merely disagreeing with but attacking the character of those who suggested otherwise. No one is saying that these sorts of enhancement packages are always bad or never worth it.  Nor is anyone assuming that everyone using them does not understand what he is doing, simply that some people might be in that situation, especially new and inexperienced players, which is particularly relevant in that you started this discussion in thread addressing the questions of just such players (which I again suggest is important context to why you might have gotten more negative reactions than perhaps you were expecting). I, and other authors, have in fact received bug reports and complaints that on investigation turned out to be the result of something a player was using in his override. Problems demonstably do occur.

WebShaman wrote...
So let me ask a question, if I might : what is someone loosing when they add the PRC, OHS, and cosmetic add-ons to the OC?

I am probably a terrible person to ask, since I have not played or much thought about the OC in many years (why would I with all the great stuff the community has produced to play instead?), and my memory of it has doubtless become imperfect. In the specific case of the OC, perhaps not much would be lost, since I imagine much content uses the OC as a baseline and is likely to be fully compatible with it, and it was not that well-balanced to begin with. I also would not consider purely cosmetic add-ons to be in exactly the same category as those affecting actual gameplay (though even these are not incapable of causing problems, when, for example, an author is trying to create a very specific aesthetic, or they prove to have compatibility issues with the author's own haks and modifications). As I already suggested, I do think new players would benefit from first gaining a good understanding of vanilla NWN before they start massively tweaking it. Remember that not everyone playing this game is a D&D veteran, and many new players find even the standard classes and character building possibilities bewilderingly complex. As a method of teaching swimming, throwing people into the deep end of the pool is not universally recommended. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

You are the one who introduced absolutes into the discussion, insisting that throwing everything but the kitchen sink into one's override folder will always add to the game

No, I did not say that.  You are exaggerating.  And no, I am not the one who introduced absolutes into the discussion, either.  You seem to be getting emotional here.  I suggested in that last remark that we leave such absolutes out of the discussion, because it is a type of hyperbole, and is unnecessary.

and not merely disagreeing with but attacking the character of those who suggested otherwise.

I have in no way, shape, or form attacked anyone's character here.  I have pointed to particular texts and voiced my opinion of what the texts represented.  I have never called anyone dishonest (an attack on one's character), or an idiot (a personal attack, against the Rules of Conduct), or made innuendos of such.  You are confusing someone else's posts with mine, it would seem.

I have agreed with points that were valid (IMHO) and I have disagreed with those that I do not consider valid.  In that, I have remained very honest in the texts that I have typed.  I have attempted at all turns to provide an environment where one can have a civil discussion.

No one is saying that these sorts of enhancement packages are always bad or never worth it.

Good, then we have made progress here.

Nor is anyone assuming that everyone using them does not understand what he is doing, simply that some people might be in that situation, especially new and inexperienced players, which is particularly relevant in that you started this discussion in thread addressing the questions of just such players

It is exactly these Players that need to be made aware that there is much more content that can be used out there.  That is doing the Playerbase a service.  As I also mentioned, it would have been fine to have just said "so-and-so was not made with the PRC in mind", instead of bashing it with the OP label.

(which I again suggest is important context to why you might have gotten more negative reactions than perhaps you were expecting).

I was actually expecting a lot worse to come - the PRC especially has a very negative image, particularly due to a few individuals who believe in some "great balance" thing, that the PRC directly threatens, or something along those lines.  And I have had many run-ins with the same peeps many times over on this particular subject, though mostly on the legacy forum (which no longer exists, unfortunately).

It is nothing new, and the treatment is nothing new.  What is new is that I have no interest in being the butt of someone's vitriol anymore.  NWN is now old, not supported anymore, and all that we have is CC now.  And I come here to have fun, reminisce, and to see what sort of new CC is underway.

I, and other authors, have in fact received bug reports and complaints that on investigation turned out to be the result of something a player was using in his override. Problems demonstably do occur.

Oh, certainly!  There have always been problems introduced by things in the Override.  We often had such problems on PWs that we needed to get to the bottom of.  

Also, adding new Haks can introduce unseen problems as well - but as an Author you are probably well acquainted with that.

You seem to not be aware that I am also an Author (though most of my work is in the MP area - Online, though I do have various other tidbits uploaded on the Vault) - at least that is the impression I get here.  

The difference is that I am not obsessed with balance anymore.  I went through that phase earlier, much as you (and others, most likely) seem to be in.  I found out to my chagrin at the time, that in NWN you cannot achieve balance.  It is just not possible.

There are so many Classes, with so many different factors, that it just is not possible under the solo Character system that Bioware tried to implement.

The real problem is that D&D was never conceptualized to be played with just one character.  It is a rule system that is centered around the idea of a Party - a group of characters that fulfill different roles.

D&D is also not a DPS game, despite what some may wish it to be.  It is a platform, a stage, where adventures are spun and played out on.  Ideally with a DM acting as the the conduit between the fantasy world and the players.

NWN did retain this spirit in the online portion of the game, of course.  That is where one has the best adventures IMHO.  But for some reason they decided not to include the party system that up until that time had been a huge success for them ala BG and Co.

This threw the game and the rule system into an unbalance that is really (again, my opinion here, but also my experience) not possible to undo for the solo character.

How, for example, is one to balance a game where one has 1/2 BaB Classes, 3/4 BaB Classes,and 1/1 BaB Classes?  Then we add the "weak" Classes into the equation at one end, and the "strong" Classes at the other.

It doesn't add up.  Either everything is too easy, or it is too hard.  Then factor in different playing styles, and everything goes to the hells in a handbasket.  

"My solo X should be able to do this!  Why is this made so that only Y can do it?" and so forth.

If one had instead 6 different Classes (or mixes thereof) one really doesn't have this problem anymore.

So I pretty much abandoned Mod making for SP play.  Instead, I went where D&D is really played - Online.  PWs were alot of fun, and then making them even moreso.  And so on.  

Please pardon the side-trip, but I felt it was a bit necessary to explain my position.  I can say with absolute certainty that I have never played a SP Mod that was perfectly balanced for all Classes and all playstyles.  I have played SP Mods that narrowed the choice down to a few, and then balanced things from there, with major rule changes, etc.  But that is not what I am talking about here.

The best SP Mods that I have played were never really interested in balance.  Instead, they told great stories.

Since I normally am only interested in the story, then it doesn't really matter much what I add to a Mod, graphics, class, spells, etc-wise.

As I already suggested, I do think new players would benefit from first gaining a good understanding of vanilla NWN before they start massively tweaking it. Remember that not everyone playing this game is a D&D veteran, and many new players find even the standard classes and character building possibilities bewilderingly complex. As a method of teaching swimming, throwing people into the deep end of the pool is not universally recommended.

On this we find ourselves in agreeance!  But if I may, it is also a nice thing to be informed of alternatives, is it not?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               @ Webshaman and his notes about solo vs. multiplayer / online.

A good friend of mine worked for three years trying to put together a solo module that could accommodate a variety of classes. He grouped the classes together - warriors (fighter, paladin, ranger, monk), arcane casters (sorceror, wizard), divine casters (cleric, druid), and rogues (rogue, bard) then set about creating encounters that were specifically tailored for each category. His desire was to have the PC enter a trigger and the OnEnter event would then determine the type of encounter to spawn based on the character's class. It all sounded good in theory, but it became a nightmare for him because it called for a TON of coding that was beyond his skills, not to mention the multiple templates for bosses that needed to be maintained. It was also excessively difficult for him to scale progression because non-creature encounters had to be adaptable to challenge all categories. In the end he wrote it off as impossible and hung up the toolset.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 14 février 2014 - 03:46 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

No, I did not say that.  You are exaggerating.  And no, I am not the one who introduced absolutes into the discussion, either.

WebShaman wrote...

It ADDS to the game.  In my book, that is never  bad.

WebShaman wrote...

Even if that were the case, however.  Yeah, I would welcome the extra content.  Doesn't mean I have to use it, does it?  But someone, somewhere, did the work to create this.  That adds to the game.

I repeat : that adds to the game.

And yeah, I find that a good thing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WebShaman wrote...

You seem to be getting emotional here. I suggested in that last remark that we leave such absolutes out of the discussion, because it is a type of hyperbole, and is unnecessary.

WebShaman wrote...

The difference is that I am not obsessed with balance anymore.  I went through that phase earlier, much as you (and others, most likely) seem to be in.  I found out to my chagrin at the time, that in NWN you cannot achieve balance.  It is just not possible.

WebShaman wrote...

It doesn't add up.  Either everything is too easy, or it is too hard.  Then factor in different playing styles, and everything goes to the hells in a handbasket.

WebShaman wrote...

I can say with absolute certainty that I have never played a SP Mod that was perfectly balanced for all Classes and all playstyles.  I have played SP Mods that narrowed the choice down to a few, and then balanced things from there, with major rule changes, etc.  But that is not what I am talking about here.

               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 février 2014 - 05:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

Pstemarie wrote...

@ Webshaman and his notes about solo vs. multiplayer / online.

A good friend of mine worked for three years trying to put together a solo module that could accommodate a variety of classes. He grouped the classes together - warriors (fighter, paladin, ranger, monk), arcane casters (sorceror, wizard), divine casters (cleric, druid), and rogues (rogue, bard) then set about creating encounters that were specifically tailored for each category. His desire was to have the PC enter a trigger and the OnEnter event would then determine the type of encounter to spawn based on the character's class. It all sounded good in theory, but it became a nightmare for him because it called for a TON of coding that was beyond his skills, not to mention the multiple templates for bosses that needed to be maintained. It was also excessively difficult for him to scale progression because non-creature encounters had to be adaptable to challenge all categories. In the end he wrote it off as impossible and hung up the toolset.

Thanks for the story, Pstemarie.  It sort of reminds me of the hassles I went through when I was building a particular PW with Nightmare and a few others.  We really tried to balance things out - months of work, number-crunching, mind-numbing power meetings, etc.

It was after that that I gave up on the balance aspect in disgust - later, it became quite clear to me why it couldn't work, due to how the game is supposed to work (ala PnP, with a Party).  After that, I started concentrating more on DMing and Storytelling, which was much more rewarding.

But we really are moving far away from the topic here.  Sorry about that, OP.