Ongoing nwn support - update

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

ffbj wrote...

It seems to me its six of one, in that if someone wants to put up a different service that not so much heat need to be directed at them.  Its just another alternative, perhaps one for those who do not want to install NWNCX.  I just don't see the logic in arguing against it.  If people want to, or have installed NWNCX then they will use Skywings, if not then here they have an alternative, with Melikor_Kings et al with their method.

This is completely true, so long as the services can work together - that was the entire point of my post above. If they can't, it would fragment the community, as the OP has already acknowledged. It's similar to the concept of rivalrous vs complementary goods in economics. Whether the addition is a net positive to the community is entirely dependant on whether it forces a division. In the worst case scenario, half of the servers would pick one and half the other, and the entire community would have access to exactly half the number of servers that they could with nonrivalrous apps, no matter which ap they chose. It's really not terribly complicated.

This was, by the by, pretty much the same objection I had to Project Q, who, failing to understand this, deliberately set them up as a rivalrous good to CEP.

Funky
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_virusman]

               NWNCX is open source, so anyone is free to submit patches that'd make it easier to use or install.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_painofdungeoneternal]

               

ffbj wrote...

It seems to me its six of one, in that if someone wants to put up a different service that not so much heat need to be directed at them.  Its just another alternative, perhaps one for those who do not want to install NWNCX.  I just don't see the logic in arguing against it.  If people want to, or have installed NWNCX then they will use Skywings, if not then here they have an alternative, with Melikor_Kings et al with their method.

Sharing of the data is the sole issue. If that is not the issue, i am fully supportive.

It's not that it competes for the players choice, it forces the PW admins to have to go and make sure they are in EVERY service, and makes them choose which one they set their hosts file to be aimed at. As far as I know, no other method in the wild actually works, and the method i set up is not yet ready to be released.

Hence the competition will result in half the PW's on one list, another on another list, because the basic method ( hosts file edit or patching exe to the same effect ) is what these two services would be competing around.

If they agree to share the same data, so everything in one list is on the other, either due to active mirroring of each other, some sort of dynamic syncing, or just using the data from skywings server ( via the open api which is there for that purpose ) the competition is less on which is more popular, but based on each players preference, each Admins preference, and overall merit. Ideally we have a lot of competing offerings.

If they happened to have a completely separate system, and had a separate method of gathering data, it would not be a big deal ( example being xFire and Gameranger which pre-existed gamespy even and use crowd sourced data from their programs usage ), but even then it would mean they are competing on who has joined which club, and not which product delivers a list of all the PWs better, and i hope to get methods to grab data from xFire and Gameranger eventually.

It seems like this is the case, they are willing to work together, and if they do so, i am more than happy to also be supportive, since that means we can have open competition, and allows more people to develop solutions to just portions of the problems.

As it is, until we get more than the hosts file edit working or until i get my code released, i am trying to scour google search results, forum postings here and else where, and using my programs beta code to add about 4 new PW's a day as i find them, since my little program seems like the only other method which actually works to successfully add a PW. Since there is no way to make things work right without modding the servers, it's never going to be perfect.

If i can get end users who use direct connect in my program ( and also do the same thing in NWNCX ), that is probably the best way to solve the problem ( crowd sourcing it ), assuming at least one user of every PW decides to use either my program, or NWNCX, or something else that comes out with similar features.

( Note that if it does work with skywings, and if i could adjust it so it did not need a patch to the exe file, ie just adjust the hosts file instead, i would be able to use it on a mac as well, and it would be a lot closer to no install needed than even the method described here for installation, but I would have to be assured that any new servers would also be provided to skywings api )
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

Melkior_King wrote...

For some months now, certain members of the gaming community have been planning and working on a total replacement for the missing Bioware and Gamespy (gs) services, including the master server (ms) and the update server (us).

Who are these Community Members? Its a neat concept, but this all seems rather sudden to me.

The release of an already-patched version of the game and an already-patched critical rebuild are being considered but again, these aren't certain.

Releasing "...already-patched version of the game and an already-patched critical rebuild" isn't going to happen without the legal teams for Atari, Bioware, EA, and WotC lining up to give you the most brutal thumping you'll ever receive.

NWN belongs to the afore mentioned companies. It isn't your game from which to produce an alternate version of it, unless of course you've worked out some arrangement with it's owners.

The community members involved in this attempt to aid the nwn community 
are planning on a patch which will take over the ongoing maintenance and
updating of Neverwinter Nights 1.  More information will be supplied in
this thread when available.  This is a slow process, so don't expect 
anything new for at least a month and probably longer.

What content do you plan to patch into the game? 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, more just playing the role of devil's advocate.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 05 avril 2013 - 10:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Well for what it’s worth, my take on this is:

There are already 7 different ways to get the info Gamespy used to provide (http://social.biowar.../index/15517034  ) and none of them have the exact same info (last I checked.) One more certainly isn’t going to hurt, and I commend the authors of this endeavor’s attempt.

That being said, the communites attempts to replace this functionality has been un-unified since inception. This has been obvious since GS shut down support for NWN. There were numerous different post regarding proposed alternatives. I can point to no less that 4 separate threads here on these boards alone.

Unifying as many of these as possible, will absolutely help to maintain (or re-establish) cohesiveness to the community.

@ Melkior_King , for the MS replacement component of you all’s system, you may want to consider somehow integrating it into Funky’s system which has become the standard for server security since the loss of the MS. (http://social.biowar...9/index/7846801  )

Perhaps not possible, but I just thought I would throw that out there.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 06 avril 2013 - 12:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_painofdungeoneternal]

               4 of those are using skywings content in some manner - the one using it the to a minor degree has a seperate system, and i actually provided php code so it could cooperate and share the ips of worlds, the other 3 are entirely dependent on skywings data source. I remember sending you who is using what, but the technical details seem to be glossed over. If you look close you will notice they all have the exact same list ( except one which is missing all of the action servers due to a very old bug )

1 is just a forum being manually edited, which is good for what it is - but by that standard there are two threads in this forum, also the vault, and you can also just google NWN gameworlds. The problem is many of those have new ip's, or they fell apart and are no longer with us. Very hard to keep up to date, i have personally given up on maintaining the NWN2 PW list manually- its just too time consuming and i am too lazy, and plan on using my program to instead populate such a list dynamically using actual current data pulled from the API and vault.

The other 2 are major systems which are providing a service to their users ( xfire and gameranger ) and were doing this long before gamespy went away for many other games. If a PW is not popular, i have no idea how it's going to get into those unless the PW admin or staff deliberately use xfire/gameranger to teach it about your PW, but then if we dropped out of existence both xfire and game ranger would still be around. If we got an official fix, it likely would just use one of those two as the solution since it's their business model.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 06 avril 2013 - 03:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Not sure what your point is here Pain?

But in regards to Xfire (I can't speak to gameranger), you don't need a PW admin to add a server to the list. Any player using Xfire joining a PW will add it to the list.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_painofdungeoneternal]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Not sure what your point is here Pain?

But in regards to Xfire (I can't speak to gameranger), you don't need a PW admin to add a server to the list. Any player using Xfire joining a PW will add it to the list.

My point is that of those 7 you describe, 4 are using skywings API and are not separate systems. 2 are about as old as gamespy and I don't really see them taking over ( they could have done so before gamespy went down but they are propietary and closed, and we are just too small to get proper support amoung the hundreds of games they list beyond a press release to take advantage of gamespy going down ), and 1 is just a forum which is a good effort, but not a real solution. 7 different ones like you describe is ignoring that 4 separate developers have implemented working solutions. 4 completely different developers are cooperating, perhaps 5 if this solution is made compatible, and 7 when my solution when visavants and my programs are released.

Gameranger and xFire are the same thing, basically companies like gamespy, and they are working now just like they did before gamespy went down, and never had a comparable listing to what gamespy offered. I am not going to spend extra time trying to ensure servers are listed by them, when I can automate getting listed just by starting the server, and eventually get a player who is already using them to help get listed. I remember doing the PW admin thing and there is far too much to manage without adding in a having to use xFire and GameRanger to connect 2-3 times to keep myself listed. ( eventually I'll figure out their protocol and get that data so it's freely available to all )

The methods they are using, are already something we can do with NWN, just adding such support to NWNCX would dramatically improve things for players ( and my never launcher already has this as a feature, ideally it's added across the board and more people make tools to help add PW's to the listing as other tasks are done ) 

The question should not be what method do I want, it should be how can we support the needs of ALL the PW admins to get listed, and ALL the needs of the players, which are often quite different than what we personally need or even understand. I see people say patch, hosts file, custom app, website, etc as if each is the only reasonable solution,  when in reality we need all of these solutions working together in a controlled diversity. The API is open in that it supports any method or direction chosen by developers, but it also keeps all of us working together since it works as a pivot around which we can organize as a greater whole. 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 06 avril 2013 - 07:37 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Just to  clarify, you only need to join a server using Xfire once to get it listed, and then it's listed for good as far as I know, unless the servers IP address changes.

Also you don't need to justify the merits of SkywingL's API to me, but I am glad to see you also perceive the need for the different developers to work together.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SkywingvL]

               

Melkior_King wrote...

Answering some of the questions:
* This new service does not require any add-ons. So no need for NWNX2 or NWNCX to be installed or running. Just run one patch, once, and the game uses the new service. This makes it simpler to use and easier to install and maintain for both players and server owners.
-> This simplicity and ease of use is the whole point of the project.

* So far as I know, the new service does not check CD keys. It only checks passwords after creating the MD5 hash upon the first login. It would be possible to add the ability to check whether or not the key is already in use on any of the servers which are using the new service, but checking actual validity of keys would not, unless Bioware and gog.com would both cooperate (gog, maybe, but BW, almost certainly not).

* I agree that having multiple unconnected replacement services is a bad idea. I will discuss with the key player in this process whether or not his system can be made to cooperate with Skywing's system. If his system and Skywing's cannot be made to cooperate, we will drop this idea and let Skywing have the field.

Expanding on the first point, I have always felt that having to install a third-party piece of software in order to make the game work is a "kludge". Messy, difficult for the novice and requiring more work than it should. I believe it discourages new players from joining the game and tends to make us appear "elitist" and unfriendly (I know that last isn't true - I just think that's how we appear to outsiders).

I want to give new players and especially novices a quick, simple, easy way to join the game, without having to learn how to install, run and maintain add-ons.

So, I hope that everyone now understands that, whatever you think of my methods, my intentions are honorable. :-)

The infrastructure that I maintain already provides for allowing other systems to easily interoperate with it:

1) You can pull a feed of all known online servers from the infrastructure programmatically using the GetOnlineServerList web service API: https://github.com/S...erverAPI.cs#L55

2) You can push new server addresses to the infrastructure programmatically using the the RegisterPendingServers web service API (up to 50 pairs of dotted quad IP/port pairs per request): https://github.com/S...erverAPI.cs#L90 .  The infrastructure periodically examines the pending server list, sends a probe to servers that aren't known, and if a response is received, normal monitoring and listing in the known server list begins.  In turn, this will automatically feed into any clients of the listing API (NWNCX, the various server list websites, etc.).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_casadechrisso]

               I agree that any sort of fragmentation will totally kill the whole effort, if it's in any way possible please work together guys and make the most convenient solution possible.
I was just browsing here because after a long time I play NWN1 again, and while I know that NWN2 multiplayer requires Skywings's Client Extender now simply because I frequent the NWN2 boards regulary, I have at this point still no idea how to easily join NWN1 PWs.
And that's the main issue I see, and why I'm still afraid the missing GS support might be the final blow to NWN(2) online - people who don't frequent these boards on a regular basis are still lost and if they don't find an easy solution within a few minutes they might give up. I think we don't just need ONE solution, we also need the one that is as simple as possible, convenient for non-geeks with the most simple installer and a nice gui (think Apple), and then advertise it like crazy via main site download links on the Nexus and Vault (like e.g. the Nexus Mod Manager for TES games).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_painofdungeoneternal]

               

SkywingvL wrote...
1) You can pull a feed of all known online servers from the infrastructure programmatically using the GetOnlineServerList web service API: https://github.com/S...erverAPI.cs#L55

2) You can push new server addresses to the infrastructure programmatically using the the RegisterPendingServers web service API (up to 50 pairs of dotted quad IP/port pairs per request): https://github.com/S...erverAPI.cs#L90 .  The infrastructure periodically examines the pending server list, sends a probe to servers that aren't known, and if a response is received, normal monitoring and listing in the known server list begins.  In turn, this will automatically feed into any clients of the listing API (NWNCX, the various server list websites, etc.).

I have examples of both methods, showing the entire raw header, example xml sent, example xml received so it's documented enough to put into any language, even if you only have a raw TCP socket to work with ( and it's tested and proven to work using php which is quite common, and tested on php 4 and php 5, but the examples should help regardless of language ). It also has the raw gamespy request which can directly talk to any PW and get it's information without using the API.

Just PM me if you want to look at it. If someone wants to vett it I'd like to get it in a public place, but it's something I wrote at about 2 am and have not had time to review it and refactor it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Melkior_King]

               I have contacted the programmer and passed Skywing's API information on to him.  As previously stated, if the two methods can't be made to cooperate, we won't continue with this replacement.

@pain, I hope you can get your examples onto a web site.  I think they'd be very useful.