Defensive Roll

[Legacy_leo_x]

               Has anyone done any testing on what  Defensive Roll actually does?  I'm suspicious that the description is not true, but it is immensly tedious to test.  Does it halve all combat damages or just base weapon / physical damages?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:40 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               It's pretty worthless regardless, so does it really matter?

That said...

http://nwn.wikia.com.../Defensive_roll

"Damage from on-hit properties, such as from darkfire or flame weapon, is not recognized by defensive roll, so such damage is not reduced. "
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               No, it doesn't really matter...  I was just curious.  But now I wonder: do you think that such a feat/ability as Defensive Roll could ever be non-worthless?  Or is the concept itself flawed?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Pearls]

               before it was patched it was quite strong but even then it depended on the saves vs damage that characters could achieve so it varied from server to server, now its almost useless
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

pope_leo wrote...

No, it doesn't really matter...  I was just curious.  But now I wonder: do you think that such a feat/ability as Defensive Roll could ever be non-worthless?  Or is the concept itself flawed?

Something like gaining 80% immunity to damage for a round after dropping below 10-20% HP would be powerful (that can only activate every minute or two).

Pearls wrote...

before it was patched it was quite strong but even then it depended on the saves vs damage that characters could achieve so it varied from server to server, now its almost useless

It was still terrible.  Let's say I had 20 HP remaining and took a hit for 25 damage.  Assuming I make the save, I take 12 damage...I'll still die on the next hit.  Or if I had 12 HP and took a hit for 25 damage, I'd die either way.  And if it's a huge hit like a crit that deals over 100 damage, I won't make the save except on a 20, so that's pointless as well.

Defensive roll can only save you if your health is between 50% and 100% of the hit's damage, and even then you'll die on the next attack.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
Defensive roll can only save you if your health is between 50% and 100% of the hit's damage, and even then you'll die on the next attack.

Actually, significant DR, like epic warding, can protect you from future blows when a critical hit triggers defensive roll.  The higher the DR absorption (both total and per blow) the more effective defensive roll is in keeping you alive.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WhiZard wrote...

Actually, significant DR, like epic warding, can protect you from future blows when a critical hit triggers defensive roll.  The higher the DR absorption (both total and per blow) the more effective defensive roll is in keeping you alive.

True, though this is another example of why I think flat damage resistance/reduction is a terrible thing.  I guess pre-patch a rogue with 20 physical reduction would have reduced the damage of an enemy who hits for 40 damage to nothing every time at <40 HP.  Since the 40 is cut in half and the remaining 20 is absorbed.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               As a once-per-day feat, I tend to classify defensive roll into the group of feats that one only takes in order to get other feats. For instance, improved combat casting arguably has some nonzero worth, if only to allow use of expertise mode and to save a caster both from having to waste a quickslot on defensive casting and from having to hit it all the time during combat. But, the cost of ICC is combat casting, which is a feat with extremely low value on its own. (I don't bother with either feat, but I can see why someone might want ICC.) Similarly, I think of defensive roll as a feat a toon is forced to take in order to get epic dodge.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 05 décembre 2012 - 12:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

pope_leo wrote...

Has anyone done any testing on what  Defensive Roll actually does?  I'm suspicious that the description is not true, but it is immensly tedious to test.  Does it halve all combat damages or just base weapon / physical damages?

The amount used is the total physical damage to be dealt after immunity/dr considerations.  This includes strength bonus, power attack, etc. 
This amount constitutes the following:
1) the maximum number of hit points remaining needed to trigger defensive roll
2) the DC for the reflex save
3) the damage amount that gets halved.

e.g. If a creature rolls to deal 12 physical damage against a defensive roll target with 4 hit points and 10/+3 DR (from shadow evade), defensive roll would not trigger, and the target would be reduced to 2 hit point.  On the next roll (let's say 12 damage again), defensive roll would trigger (DC 2) and deal only one damage reducing hit points to 1.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               The automatic Def Roll general feat 3.5 version is much better without the DC check in it, IMO. Otherwise NWN's DC potential can climb so high in strength builds that when the user needs its influence the most, it becomes negated.

I've always considered the3.0 Def Roll a class-specific means to further bolster a melee class strapped with relatively low HPs and usually low CON besides, of greatest benefit at low levels before the DC becomes overwhelming.  Level 10 seems a bit too high to me to substantiate it.  I sense they were on the right track, though, when they shoved it in as an SD autofeat at Level 5 and IMO should have readjusted rogue reqs to that level as well.  Again, for some low-level help, if that indeed entered their rationale.
 
Once they made it a one-a-day vitamin, possibly to more accurately coincide with 3.0 guidelines, IMO they detracted from most of its effectiveness.  If they had simply removed it as a prereq for ED, nobody would ever select it.  I don't recall ED (and the Def Roll prereq) showing up until 3.5.  Anybody remember if it was added to 3.0 at some point?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               Epic levels are not part of the 3.0 SRD; they were added in 2001-2002 in the Epic Level Handbook just before the release of the 3.5 edition.  I do not have this resource to check.  The one offered for download on the WOTC site is the 3.5 Epic Level Handbook, published later.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

WhiZard wrote...

Epic levels are not part of the 3.0 SRD; they were added in 2001-2002 in the Epic Level Handbook just before the release of the 3.5 edition.  I do not have this resource to check.  The one offered for download on the WOTC site is the 3.5 Epic Level Handbook, published later.

I found a download of a scanned July 2002 Epic Level Handbook.  This is still 3.0, and all NWN epic feats parallel this 3.0 epic feat allotment rather than the 3.5 modification. (E.g. epic spell penetration is +6 non-stacking in 3.0, but +4 stacking in Epic Insights (3.5)).  The 3.0 version rendering has epic dodge as requiring 25 DEX, tumble 30, dodge, improved evasion, and defensive roll.