The munchkin builds page

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               I went back and re-read the thread to make sure I have the whole context instead of just jumping in feet-first. >_<

This can be a useful discussion, but right now it's not. As Web has stated, you two have different definitions of munchkinism, and what you're both doing is saying "I define munchkinism as X, therefore Y is/isn't munchkinism." This isn't how useful discussions work, and neither of you is helping matters by repeating the same talking points.

If you guys want to actually reach some sort of consensus rather than arguing for arguing's sake, you need to dissolve the question.

Consider: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? People can disagree depending on how they define "sound". If by "sound" they mean vibrations carried through the air, then their answer to the question is yes because a falling tree makes those vibrations regardless of whether anyone's around. If, however, they mean auditory experiences perceived by a brain, then their answer is no, because no one is around to receive an auditory experience of the tree falling. Instead of arguing over the definition of "sound", then, we can dissolve the question by asking "...does it cause vibrations in the air?" or "...does it cause auditory experiences in people's brains?" Reasonable people can agree on these questions where they would not agree on the question as originally phrased.

How to apply this to have a useful discussion? Don't talk about why build X is or isn't munchkinism. Talk about the characteristics of build X and why that might or might not be desirable, what sorts of playstyles it might appeal to, and its relative power in various environments.

Lemme give a nudge here...

WebShaman wrote...

I can only say that since in NWN the environment is practically infinitely variable, that there is no inherent munchkin-like build that is consistent in all of them (whereas the munchkin playstyle is).

You seem to be talking about whether a build is overpowered given the environment in which it is played.

MagicalMaster wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

The Exhalted Sorceress is not the "best" build - or at least, it wasn't. Before patch 1.69 changed things, it was Puff the Dragon (environment dependent, of course).

Doesn't have to be the "best" build to be a munchkin build.  If you made a 38 sorcerer/1 monk/1 paladin and then gave him nothing but Skill Foci feats, it would still be a munchkin build.

You seem to be talking about whether a build uses game and class features in a way that is legal according to the game rules but counter to what the designers intended.

You can make a case for these characteristics. But the definition of a "munchkin build" is enitrely arbitrary and considerinf that the label of "munchkin" conveys negative connotations (whether you think it ought to or not), the charitable thing to do is avoid applying it unless you guys can agree on whether or not a build should be viewed pejoratively on its own merits.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Squatting Monk, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Squatting Monk wrote...

You seem to be talking about whether a build uses game and class features in a way that is legal according to the game rules but counter to what the designers intended.

You can make a case for these characteristics. But the definition of a "munchkin build" is enitrely arbitrary and considerinf that the label of "munchkin" conveys negative connotations (whether you think it ought to or not), the charitable thing to do is avoid applying it unless you guys can agree on whether or not a build should be viewed pejoratively on its own merits.

As people here are fond of pointing out, "Powergaming" and "Roleplaying" are not mutually exclusive.  In other words, you can do a lot of both (or do neither).  To me, "munchkin" indicates powergaming without roleplaying.  In terms of builds, it's a character that utilizes mechanics in a way that doesn't make sense RP-wise.

Obviously, there's a subjectiveness to it that comes from the class system.  A 39 sorcerer/1 paladin would be munchkin, you're abusing the charisma saves (and potentially full plate armor proficiency).  On the flip side, a 20 sorcerer/20 paladin wouldn't be.

For me, the deciding factor is whether you take levels in a class solely to gain abuse a few specific low level features (charisma saves, full plate proficiency) or whether you care about the whole package (high BAB, paladin spells, etc).  The exact breakpoint can be hazy.

I think a good analogy is having to classify something as hot or cold.  Everyone will say 110 F/43 C is hot and 20 F/-7 C is cold.  But what's the point at which it crosses over from hot to cold?  And if you're going to claim we use a word like "warm" or "cool" then rephrase the question as "hot versus warm" or "cool versus cold" if you'd like.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 23 septembre 2012 - 12:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

In terms of builds, it's a character that utilizes mechanics in a way that doesn't make sense RP-wise.

A good RPer can RP anything.  It all relies on the playstyle, not the mechanic.  Anything can be made to "make sense", if one is a good RPer.

You say

whether you take levels in a class solely to gain abuse a few spedific low level features [sic] or whether you care about the whole package

As long as the Character is being RPed accordingly, it should not really matter.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

WebShaman wrote...

A good RPer can RP anything.  It all relies on the playstyle, not the mechanic.  Anything can be made to "make sense", if one is a good RPer.

So taking 1 level of rogue after 39 levels of fighter and putting 40 points into Tumble is RPed as...?

"Um, I practiced Tumbling.  A LOT.  Yeah."

WebShaman wrote...

As long as the Character is being RPed accordingly, it should not really matter.

I never said otherwise.  If someone wants to RP the Exalted Sorceress as a pure sorcerer, I wouldn't care, at least not RP-wise.  But I think most people who WOULD care that you're not RPing the 1 level of monk and 1 level of paladin would also object to said 1 level in each in the first place.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aelis Eine]

               So... how do you RP an evil Paladin/Blackguard that retains full Paladin abilities, including the stacking Cha bonus to saves?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               As a split personality?

Perhaps she has more than one "soul"?

Instead of putting yourself in a box (can't be done, etc), take what one has and explore ways to make it believable.  Then RP that.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

                This thread reminds me of the cheating vs. not cheating threads. 

The hardcore RP'ers believe that mixing certain classes in certain quantities in a character build is a "munchkin" build, and people who dwell somewhere between hardcore RP and powergaming believe the build has nothing to do with which category the player falls in. Good RP is good RP no matter whether you play true to stats.

Here's a bit of information for both. The ONLY reason anyone multiclasses is for mechanical advantage. You don't need to take more than one class in a PC to RP that PC. Particularly prestige classes. That's the nature of RP. Pretending. Anyone who believes otherwise is only fooling themselves. So it boils down to degrees of "munchkin".

And really..... who cares?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

So taking 1 level of rogue after 39 levels of fighter and putting 40 points into Tumble is RPed as...?

"Um, I practiced Tumbling.  A LOT.  Yeah."

I never said otherwise.  If someone wants to RP the Exalted Sorceress as a pure sorcerer, I wouldn't care, at least not RP-wise.  But I think most people who WOULD care that you're not RPing the 1 level of monk and 1 level of paladin would also object to said 1 level in each in the first place.

But I have seen a 39th lvl Monk actually RP the addition of 1 lvl of Rgr over the course of several lvls (ca. 30 sessions), so it can be done. To say it not possible is rather prejudicial.

And with the broken Cross-class mechanincs, I do not fault those that save Skill Pts since allocation along the way may not be done properly. Plus they may have to actually play 39 lvls of the game with the deficit skills; not always the joy of overall play (ie; dying due to a lack of Tumble).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

 This thread reminds me of the cheating vs. not cheating threads. 

The hardcore RP'ers believe that mixing certain classes in certain quantities in a character build is a "munchkin" build, and people who dwell somewhere between hardcore RP and powergaming believe the build has nothing to do with which category the player falls in. Good RP is good RP no matter whether you play true to stats.

Here's a bit of information for both. The ONLY reason anyone multiclasses is for mechanical advantage. You don't need to take more than one class in a PC to RP that PC. Particularly prestige classes. That's the nature of RP. Pretending. Anyone who believes otherwise is only fooling themselves. So it boils down to degrees of "munchkin".

And really..... who cares?

Sorry GW, but here I disagree. Some may wish to play a core class for the race simply as a cultural norm (eg; Dwarven Ftr, Elven Mage, etc). While I would be hard pressed to lose a ton of Skill pts by starting as a Ftr instead of a Rogue, there are those that do so.

While there may be those that m/c for mechanical reasons - possibly the majority - not being able to judge the motives of Players themselves would seem to leave room for other considerations.

And as a side note, GW has played a WM that also utilized a Big Stick as a secondary weapon, and RP'd that rather unique choice well. While this may or may not have been done for mechanical advantages, it still was a shining example of RP a powered build.

And I care; would change my opinion, but that would make me wrong, too!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:46 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Sorry GW, but here I disagree. Some may wish to play a core class for the race simply as a cultural norm (eg; Dwarven Ftr, Elven Mage, etc). While I would be hard pressed to lose a ton of Skill pts by starting as a Ftr instead of a Rogue, there are those that do so. 

No matter what the rationalization is, taking rogue levels for your fighter is seeking mechanical advantage. With the rogue levels your fighter will have a better AC than a straight fighter due to points in tumble. He'll be able to use magical devices a fighter wouldn't normally be able to use due to UMD. He'll be able to handle locks and traps a fighter wouldn't be able to get past without a rogue as a companion. He'll be able to deal more damage to enemies with sneak attack when they aren't focused on him. All of these things are mechanical  advantages over a straight fighter.

Elhanan wrote...

While there may be those that m/c for mechanical reasons - possibly the majority - not being able to judge the motives of Players themselves would seem to leave room for other considerations. 

My contention is that there is only one motive.... mechanical advantage. That's not to say they seek that advantage so they can run all over the server solo powergaming and killing other PC's at will, but they are still multi-classing for some mechanical advantage. You don't truly need more than one class to RP your character. The nature of RP means you can pretend anything you want. If you're convincing at it, then others will consider you a "good" RPer, no matter what your build is.

Elhanan wrote...

And as a side note, GW has played a WM that also utilized a Big Stick as a secondary weapon, and RP'd that rather unique choice well. While this may or may not have been done for mechanical advantages, it still was a shining example of RP a powered build. 

I still play that character occasionally. He uses his "walking stick" (quarterstaff) more than his greataxe, most of the time. He only breaks out the heavy armor and the greataxe when it looks like things are going to get serious.  '>

And of course I added levels of bard and weaponmaster to his fighter build for mechanical advantage. What other reason could there be? '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

No matter what the rationalization is, taking rogue levels for your fighter is seeking mechanical advantage. With the rogue levels your fighter will have a better AC than a straight fighter due to points in tumble. He'll be able to use magical devices a fighter wouldn't normally be able to use due to UMD. He'll be able to handle locks and traps a fighter wouldn't be able to get past without a rogue as a companion. He'll be able to deal more damage to enemies with sneak attack when they aren't focused on him. All of these things are mechanical  advantages over a straight fighter.

My contention is that there is only one motive.... mechanical advantage. That's not to say they seek that advantage so they can run all over the server solo powergaming and killing other PC's at will, but they are still multi-classing for some mechanical advantage. You don't truly need more than one class to RP your character. The nature of RP means you can pretend anything you want. If you're convincing at it, then others will consider you a "good" RPer, no matter what your build is.

I still play that character occasionally. He uses his "walking stick" (quarterstaff) more than his greataxe, most of the time. He only breaks out the heavy armor and the greataxe when it looks like things are going to get serious.  '>

And of course I added levels of bard and weaponmaster to his fighter build for mechanical advantage. What other reason could there be? '> 

See; I know that you can PG with the best of them, but you among others also show that RP is quite possible with builds both great and small.

But I have seen some folks take classes that did not appear to offer any real kind of benefit, or I could see other possible ways to improve that design. Or in Web's case, a solo class is offered as an illustration that the MM may be completely viable and possibly superior to a m/c model, even though I prefer Rogue added for the Skill Pts instead of the pure mage power.

Then there is the PrC, which requires other classes as a prereq; another possible motivation to play them as a single class.

While there may be a mechanical advantage to m/c, it is difficult for me to assign this as the motive behind it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

GW said :

No matter what the rationalization is, taking rogue levels for your fighter is seeking mechanical advantage. With the rogue levels your fighter will have a better AC than a straight fighter due to points in tumble.

No, I am playing the Grey Mouser here - and as portrayed by Fritz Lieber, The Grey Mouser is a Fighter/Rogue (see Dragon Mag don't know what issue for the level breakdown).

RP can come before any supposed mechanical advantage.  And to be honest, one can MC and receive mechanical disadvantages, accordingly.  Wiz/Sorc with below 9 Cha, anyone (Half-Orc)?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

The hardcore RP'ers believe that mixing certain classes in certain quantities in a character build is a "munchkin" build, and people who dwell somewhere between hardcore RP and powergaming believe the build has nothing to do with which category the player falls in. Good RP is good RP no matter whether you play true to stats.

You do realize that I really don't RP at all?  If anything, I fall on the "Will RP if needed but don't really care about it" end of the spectrum.

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Here's a bit of information for both. The ONLY reason anyone multiclasses is for mechanical advantage. You don't need to take more than one class in a PC to RP that PC. Particularly prestige classes. That's the nature of RP. Pretending. Anyone who believes otherwise is only fooling themselves. So it boils down to degrees of "munchkin".

And really..... who cares?

People multi-class to have the mechanics reflect the RP.  If you want a strong fighter who also knows a variety of skills, you could go 20 Fighter/20 Rogue.  If you want a person dedicated to offense, you go Weapon Master.

If anything, I'd say that if a build only multi-classes to gain a mechanical advantage then that's the precise definition of munchkin.  Multi-classing should exist to get a different flavor of a character, NOT a more absolutely powerful character.  A 40 Fighter, 20 Fighter/20 Rogue, and 40 Rogue should all be roughly equal in theory, each with different strengths and weaknesses.  Each is trying to portray a different character.

Regarding the "who cares?" part, I mainly care because munchkin builds disrupt any semblence of balance.  It is impossible AC when I have to play for 40 druids going into Dragon Shape and 38 Druid/2 Monk going into Dragon Shape.  The AC is quite literally often 18 points apart on a d20 system.

Elhanan wrote...

But I have seen a 39th lvl Monk actually RP the addition of 1 lvl of Rgr over the course of several lvls (ca. 30 sessions), so it can be done. To say it not possible is rather prejudicial.

And with the broken Cross-class mechanincs, I do not fault those that save Skill Pts since allocation along the way may not be done properly. Plus they may have to actually play 39 lvls of the game with the deficit skills; not always the joy of overall play (ie; dying due to a lack of Tumble).

I didn't say a 39 fighter couldn't RP taking a rogue level (though I still find it rather curious).  I was asking how you justified taking 40 ranks of tumble in 1 level.

And bullfeathers on the second part.  Allocation can be done every other level.  A fighter can add a full point of Tumble every two levels instead of 1/2 a point every level.

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

No matter what the rationalization is, taking rogue levels for your fighter is seeking mechanical advantage. With the rogue levels your fighter will have a better AC than a straight fighter due to points in tumble. He'll be able to use magical devices a fighter wouldn't normally be able to use due to UMD. He'll be able to handle locks and traps a fighter wouldn't be able to get past without a rogue as a companion. He'll be able to deal more damage to enemies with sneak attack when they aren't focused on him. All of these things are mechanical  advantages over a straight fighter.

And something like a 20 Rogue/20 Fighter will lose 10 feats.  He'll have less BAB.  He'll have less HP.

The idea is that you give up some fighter prowess for some rogue skills.  A give and take to result in a *different* character, not a *better* character.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 28 septembre 2012 - 05:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

MM said :

I didn't say a 39 fighter couldn't RP taking a rogue level (though I still find it rather curious).  I was asking how you justified taking 40 ranks of tumble in 1 level.

She became a Chosen of Bast?

Seriously, anything can be explained away in an RP sense.  All one is left with is trying to separate the intent here, which is subjective (unless one actually comes out and says one or the other, as you have).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

I didn't say a 39 fighter couldn't RP taking a rogue level (though I still find it rather curious).  I was asking how you justified taking 40 ranks of tumble in 1 level.

And bullfeathers on the second part.  Allocation can be done every other level.  A fighter can add a full point of Tumble every two levels instead of 1/2 a point every level.

I believe a 3E Ftr/ Rog should not have 1/2 limits along the way (eg; 17th lvl should still be able to have 20 ranks, even if they had to pay more for them). Since the NWN engine does not work this way, I do not fault those for using another.

Plus the Player still must sit on all those unused Skill Pts on their climb to 40th; could be of more use in actual play.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:44 .