Author Topic: Improved Whirlwind Attack and Tony K's AI ?  (Read 423 times)

Legacy_MrZork

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Improved Whirlwind Attack and Tony K's AI ?
« on: July 14, 2011, 01:00:03 am »


               First off, I love Tony K’s AI mod. Almost every campaign is vastly more playable with the improved henchman AI and in-game henchman AI customizability and inventory control. And, of course, smarter opponents are a huge boon. Huge props go to Tony K for this excellent addition to the game.

That said, this is a note about a possible bug. I tried using the Vault’s email function, but I don’t think the author is checking that address. I figure posting it here increases the chance that he gets the word and lets others know of the issue in case they experience something similar.

(Spoilery note: I noticed the problem - and it is easily reproduced - in the module Sands of Fate 1: Shadows Over Heliopolis, where a battle takes place against an unarmed, hasted high-level Barbarian / Monk.)

Playing through this recently, I noticed that the opponent, instead of fighting normally (using unarmed strike), mostly stands there repeating some animation as a little cloud of dust effect plays around him every round. The combat log says that he is attempting Improved Whirlwind Attack, though I was his only opponent. And, he was not hitting, even though he has a sufficiently high AB relative to my character's AC. (I am almost sure that I never actually saw an attack roll for him in the log.) If I run away from him (out of IWA range?), he will sometimes chase and then hit normally a couple of times before going back to missing with IWA. Basically, that battle becomes a tree-chopping exercise because the boss 1) is trying an attack mode that is a poor choice for one-on-one combat and 2) something is bugging/interrupting even that attack so that he never males an attack role.

I initially thought this might be a module issue, so I went to check if other's had encountered it. I noticed only one other report of this in the 20-odd pages of comments on the module's vault page, but the author was unable to duplicate it, so I started thinking this could be some sort of override conflict. I have several mods in my override, so I swapped back to an override folder that has only the Bioware files  that install with the 1.69 patch. Now the boss acts as he should, attacking and being a fairly challenging opponent. Then I installed only the 1.08 Henchman AI override into the otherwise factory-fresh override folder and played again. The bugged IWA attacks reappeared.

(BTW, lest someone get the impression that this problem is specific to the one mod or one character, it is not. It’s just particularly obvious when a high-level hasted monk character is doing it.)

It can be a bit of a pain to start up SOH and get to the fight where this is testable. So, I slapped together a micro-module with one area with the same baddy so that others can see what I am talking about. Just unzip the MOD file to the game's modules folder and take a high-level character into the module "Whilrwind Test". (The pull-chain at the end of the first hallway spawns the boss in the next room.) Try it with a clean (only Bioware's default files) override folder and then install Tony K's AI. The problem is very repeatable.

It isn’t clear to me why the AI would even be trying to IWA against a single opponent. Beyond that, I kind of wonder if the IWA attempts never hit because the AI is resetting them before the attack can be rolled, possibly due to the haste (or monk speed) tricking a timer into thinking the attack should take less time than it does.

I don't know for sure if this is related to the henchman AI mod but, with the symptoms, it seems connected and I thought it would be worth posting in case others have run across it or know what's going on or can get in touch with Tony K.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MrZork, 14 juillet 2011 - 12:34 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Improved Whirlwind Attack and Tony K's AI ?
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 01:37:07 am »


               1) Have you discounted the possibility that this is an issue between the CEP and Tony K's AI? 

2) Have you experienced the same oddity playing any vanilla modules with same?

Whirlwind attack itself is very buggy and requires a lot of practice to avoid getting permanently locked up... so other quirks like this wouldn't surprise me, not that your observation doesn't deserve adequate attention, MrZork... just that there may be something fundamentally wrong with the way the game handles that attack in general.  If you haven't experienced anything strange playing with WW until the Sands of Fate, you should consider yourself a fortunate fellow.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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Improved Whirlwind Attack and Tony K's AI ?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 02:32:31 am »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

1) Have you discounted the possibility that this is an issue between the CEP and Tony K's AI? 

2) Have you experienced the same oddity playing any vanilla modules with same?

Yes. And, the test module I posted is CEP-free. I made it that way so that it was easy to test with only one different factor: the override folder.

Whirlwind attack itself is very buggy and requires a lot of practice to avoid getting permanently locked up... so other quirks like this wouldn't surprise me, not that your observation doesn't deserve adequate attention, MrZork... just that there may be something fundamentally wrong with the way the game handles that attack in general.  If you haven't experienced anything strange playing with WW until the Sands of Fate, you should consider yourself a fortunate fellow.

Heh. Very true. Of course, Sands of Fate was the first module I played after the three main Bioware campaigns...

I knew about the locking issue before (a note about it is in NWNWiki and it came up here a little while back), but I hadn't seen anything similar to these symptoms before. Of course, there's no way to tell if this is a separate issue from the other WA/IWA problems or if it is something particular to that attack used with Tony K's AI. I have never seen this with vanilla NWN+expansions and it will happen consistently with TK's AI, which is probably one of the most popular override mods out there, so I figured it was worth posting.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Skildron

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Improved Whirlwind Attack and Tony K's AI ?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 08:21:34 am »


               The WA problems are a bug since at least 1.66 (or even earlier) and have been reported to Bioware before the EA era several times, e.g. by myself.  The bug never got fixed. It can be reproduced. The bug hits when a hasted PC or NPC uses WA without any opponent in fighting range or, with an opponent in fighting range, when the WA misses the opponent (e.g. with the irritable 1). As WA is hard coded in the nwn fighting engine, there seems to be nothing that can be done about it.

Tony K's AI makes NPCs use WA more often, so with it, they are more often hit by this bug than without the AI modifications.

Greetings
Skildron
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Skildron, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:22 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MrZork

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Improved Whirlwind Attack and Tony K's AI ?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 08:42:27 pm »


               Interesting. I didn't know about the range aspect of the WA/IWA lockup issue. My playing partner has been using IWA regularly in the module series we're going through and hasn't had it lock up her character.

But, the lockup issue is separate from what I am describing. In this case, something different is taking place because the NPC never makes an attack roll for Improved Whirlwind Attack. It's not as though he makes several IWAs and then rolls a miss and locks up. The combat log reports that he "performs Improved Whirlwind Attack" repeatedly, but no attack roll is ever made. Meanwhile, he isn't really locked up, because if the PC runs away, the NPC will chase and sometime attack normally (not using IWA) a few times, but soon goes back to the repeated non-rolled IWAs.

(I am not sure I am being clear about what's going on here, since I am not talking about the known lock-up issue for PCs, but a problem for NPCs that use IWA. Feel free to grab the test module I linked to earlier which I think shows the issue clearly. It's just a plain 7zipped mod file, 29kb nothing fancy.)

One way or the other, there is still an issue that might be addressed with a fix to the AI, since the AI is forcing the NPC to make IWA attempts when there is no reason to do so. Even if IWA were not internally bugged at all, that would be an AI bug. A fix for Tony K's AI may not help with the troublesome nature of IWA when PCs are trying to use it, but it would be a great help for many modules where the bug I am describing can render NPCs worthless and it only seems to occur when that AI is enabled.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MrZork, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:45 .