Are small areas inherently better than large areas?

[Legacy_Leurnid]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Leurnid wrote...

Large areas do use more processing power and can, if loaded with enough stuff, lag or crash a system, especially an older machine or one with a less robust graphics card.

Lagging? maybe, Crashing? hardly

it depends on a tileset, default bioware tilesets can be used to create 32x32 areas without problem even on old graphic cards, yes it takes longer to load but it also depends on placeables usage. The more placeable the worse and a 32x32areas probably needs many of them.

Such area won't load longer than four area of 8x8 would.

Still creating such big areas is very difficult as it takes four times more time to design them and finish them. Something to consider as well.

Just to justify my statement, on the machine I was playing NWN on 10+ years ago, I had the toolset crash on a number of occasions trying to save a 32x32 area I was working on. It wasn't the 32x32 that was the problem, I was able to save the raw build without difficulty previously. Crammed with upwards of probably 30-50 transitions, hundreds, heck, maybe over a thousand placeables, about a dozen shops with NPCs, and triggers for NPC spawn.
I rebuilt the thing from the previous build that wasn't quite as packed with stuff, loaded some stuff in and trimmed a bunch out trying to keep it light enough.  The area took forever to load, and often, NWN would simply lock up loading it, or crash to the desktop.

Granted, that was a 10+ year old machine, as good as it was, and the area was a prime example of everything they recommend against, but it was possible, and may be still, to crash NWN with a big area.

*tileset was bio city exterior.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Leurnid, 19 mai 2012 - 05:49 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Groove Widdit]

               I'm using a lot of visual effects all layered on top of each other and it's crashing my system every time I have it on the screen for a couple minutes. I'm using the max area.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Rolo Kipp wrote...
Now extend that philosophy even further into the topology of the areas themselves. IMO it is a mistake to simply try to stitch together hundreds of geographically accurate but rather bland large areas.

You mean the topology of how the areas are connected? Yeah, I need to work on that. At present, the released part of Arnheim mostly consisted of a section of Falkswoud. 9 exterior areas in a 3x3 grid. Some of the interiors cross connect areas, but only in simple ways.

I am using seamless area transitions, and it has influenced the design of my areas as well as the "topology" as you call it, the way they link together. I like the naturalism of it. But as you say you can go too far with naturalism as it can make things boring. Its been a challenge to create a unique experience in each outdoor area even though they are stitched together in a grid. (Even the topography is stitched together. I am obsessive.)

Rolo Kipp wrote... 
I thought long and hard about the optimum size of the template areas for the Regional mod system, taking into account exactly what you are talking about. I settled on 13x13 for those reasons and my own quirk that I like odd numbers. They give me a center tile and center tiles on the edges.

Yes, on the areas I made for Vives, 13x13 was a typical size. An odd number of tiles allows one to make a center.

Rolo Kipp wrote...  
I also like the technique of multiple small areas being in one map so transitions are quick. A 32x32 area that is mostly black wall loads pretty quickly and offers lots of room for 9 or 12 small areas, or one very long corridor/path (remembering that we are not stuck with square shapes).

Multiple "areas" in one Area, is indeed a good design goal. 5-6 players can have an encounter in a 2x2 tile space. I try to create many such spaces. In the midst of play, a DM might be inspired by these spaces to do something. Players also gravite to places the "look like something", that have that genius loci.

I am with you on the non-square areas. In Vives I played with that a lot. But in Arnheim I've been obsessed with Seamless Area Transitions. I need to break out of the mold.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Leurnid]

               When I lay out interiors for shops, inns, castles, etc... as long as it is all sharing a common tileset, I too like to lay out all the floors in one big area for each building.  Rooms/levels should be separated by at least 3-4 black wall tiles to maintain separation and avoid 'peeking'. Level transitions such as stairs are almost seamlessly fast, and it makes sense that a drunken NPC bellowing in the common room could be heard upstairs... that sort of thing gets a lot more tricky if the Rusty Bucket Inn is divided into 5 areas.

edit: the only issue I have found with this approach is sometimes, the NPCs have trouble navigating the transitions between floors for way points or other ambient behavior routines.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Leurnid, 20 mai 2012 - 01:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               One of the advantages of contiguous terrain, in those instances where an area may not have an important encounter or many/any quest oriented uses, is that DMs can use these as places to work without worries that their spawns will somehow conflict with the default spawns of the area - they also allow something essential in maintaining heightened tension - the occaision when, despite tension levels



nothing happens. Go watch some hitchcock films and you'll see how that master used such things to great effect.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               So anyway to the OP.

As you can tell there is not a definitive answer to which is "better". But there are a number of criteria that you can apply in your own judgements as to what size you should use for an area in a particular situation.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 20 mai 2012 - 07:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy__Guile]

               

henesua wrote...

So anyway to the OP.

As you can tell there is not a definitive answer to which is "better". But there are a number of criteria that you can apply in your own judgements as to what size you should use for an area in a particular situation.

Good answer.. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Groove Widdit]

               The conclusion this thread left me with is lots of placables, npcs, stores, encounters, ect is what crashes computers - big areas are just gonna have more of that.

P.S. It turned out to be the npc|other that were crashing my system.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               I suggest Grove, is make a 32X32 area, and fill it up. Placeables, stores, NPCS, spawns, sounds, the works. See how your system handles it. Invite others to play test it with you. See how it acts in MP. then use the re-size area and whittle it down, and test as you go. at some point you will see where the load time drops off, where the stability is, and what your machine can handle.

While most of what the other posters said is true, most of the communities responses on area size and stability stem from the first couple of years of NWN, when the computers were less powerful.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Leurnid]

               Be sure and copy it before you resize it, don't want to lose work..
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Groove Widdit]

               YEah I copy my mod early and often. My max-size area keeps crashing my system and I don't really even have that much stuff in it, so I think I'm gonna re-size anyway. Go long and narrow.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Leurnid]

               Long and narrow... I assume you are making a city then?

Submitted for your perusal:



This poor quality picture of the map of Lahnkmar in the old F.Lieber books is a great example of how one can layout a city without using massive areas.

What I like about it is that none of the buildings off the streets are detailed or shown. One can have medium to long but narrow areas depicting the major streets, and create just as much immersion without using massive areas. When people cut off the main street, whether to enter a shop, a side street, or a dark alley, they transition to a new zone, allowing you to control the environment better in every case. What you lose for a brief transition, you gain back in control.

Including a maze of alleys and side streets in the same zone as the big street just taxes the system and boxes you into the map as you drew it.

Here is a later version of the map made by TSR for D&D:



The detail level went up, but notice the white boxes? The set this map came with included a booklet of maps that could be used for encounters in those back alley areas... and you were never obligated to use the same ones in the same places.. By detailing the entire map on one area, you lose that modular control of encounters, but by keeping things seperated into discrete areas, you can do crazy stuff like have 20 back alley areas, and random transitions that will only attach those areas to other areas when somebody enters, leave them attached for a little while, then reset it.

Just some of my oddball musings.  Hope it inspires you!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Groove Widdit]

               My area in question is the rural hub for my mod.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Groove Widdit, 24 mai 2012 - 10:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Groove Widdit]

               Yeah, actually it did inspire me.