Author Topic: Future of the ABC  (Read 2610 times)

Legacy_Verilazic

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2014, 12:58:36 am »


               


For the record, Verilazic isn't an alt account of mine.




 


Lol, sorry, was I parroting you? XD I actually hadn't read all the preceding posts. /embarrassed


 


I'm just new to the online NWN community. Didn't start exploring until the old vault started showing signs of problems about 6 months ago, and I noticed a bunch of really cool people taking steps to mitigate that, and decided I wanted to help out.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2014, 02:03:23 am »


               


 






Well, what's the purpose of having the themes? Aren't they there as prompts, to get people started? If someone has something else in mind that's completely different, how is that a problem? If, again, I am right in assuming the point is to quickly create adventures for people to play?





 


Ideally, the ABC would function partly for the benefit of players (giving them something fun to play), and partly for the benefit of builders, who find the themes or whatever a source of inspiration, or just enjoy the challenge of creating under the various restrictions. Strictly speaking, it is true that themes are not necessary. However, more than one prospective participant has said that they find something like a particular adventure seed to be actually helpful in creating a module.


 






What about instead of a points system, just ask for people to play and write feedback on each submitted module?...I don't know about you, but I find it extremely fulfilling to spend my time moderating feedback and discussions that could help people improve what they're doing...




 


These are not mutually exclusive alternatives, discussion and feedback on the modules is certainly encouraged (and in fact, for example, some quite long and extensive discussions resulted from the original ABC cycle, see here). This however is to a great extent dependent on the ability and willingness of the people involved to participate, which I expect to be subject to variation.


 







...More so than arguing about an arbitrary system that is going to be game-able by it's very nature. It's a tool, and the right tool can be useful in the right situation.





 


I certainly do not disagree, but as long as I have the responsibility for organizing this thing I am going to need to set up some sort of system, however vague and arbitrary. If I am then going to be criticized for every detail of what I do (as has been happening), I do not see what else I can do but respond, either by altering the offending elements of the system or explaining why I find such alteration inadvisable.


 






Do we really need an incentive to combine both beyond recognition that they did so?  Could even just mark the categories the entry fulfilled as comments...




 


A checklist of this sort is, to all intents and purposes, just what the points system is. A slightly fancy way of providing recognition that something or other was done is pretty much all any of these award systems is.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Verilazic

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2014, 03:13:46 am »


               


Ideally, the ABC would function partly for the benefit of players (giving them something fun to play), and partly for the benefit of builders, who find the themes or whatever a source of inspiration, or just enjoy the challenge of creating under the various restrictions. Strictly speaking, it is true that themes are not necessary. However, more than one prospective participant has said that they find something like a particular adventure seed to be actually helpful in creating a module.


 


These are not mutually exclusive alternatives, discussion and feedback on the modules is certainly encouraged (and in fact, for example, some quite long and extensive discussions resulted from the original ABC cycle, see here). This however is to a great extent dependent on the ability and willingness of the people involved to participate, which I expect to be subject to variation.




 


Agreed. I guess what I meant to ask was whether it's necessary to "enforce" the themes via the points system. Why not just have the themes available, but don't grade based on whether a submission follows them or not? And if there already is extensive discussion and feedback, what need is there for scores, except to give you a headache? '<img'>


 




I certainly do not disagree, but as long as I have the responsibility for organizing this thing I am going to need to set up some sort of system, however vague and arbitrary. If I am then going to be criticized for every detail of what I do (as has been happening), I do not see what else I can do but respond, either by altering the offending elements of the system or explaining why I find such alteration inadvisable.


 


A checklist of this sort is, to all intents and purposes, just what the points system is. A slightly fancy way of providing recognition that something or other was done is pretty much all any of these award systems is.


 




 


In my experience people interpret a single number differently from a checklist, or even a series of numbers. If you're willing to make all those decisions while also defending them on top of actually organizing the logistics of the Challenge itself, fair enough. I just think it would save you some time and trouble to simplify things, unless there's actually a significant group of modders who want to be competitive about it I suppose.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2014, 03:14:45 am »


               

In my experience people interpret a single number differently from a checklist, or even a series of numbers. 




               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2014, 03:18:31 pm »


               

I still think that the whole hak sponzorship is wrong. That allows to use less and less content because builders usually sponzor only newest creations and not those that were used in previous ABC challenge.


 


In my opinion, if an easy use is the purpose of this, then it would be better if an organizator prepared a list of allowed haks for given theme in advance. Perhaps even a config hak that allows to use them together.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2014, 01:11:28 pm »


               


...I just think it would save you some time and trouble to simplify things...




 


In case it was not clear, the current points system is not going to be used in the future, and whatever replaces it will definitely be a lot simpler. As I already indicated, I am leaning towards simply restoring the original "Completion prize or not" system, which is about as simple as one can get.


 




I still think that the whole hak sponzorship is wrong. That allows to use less and less content because builders usually sponzor only newest creations and not those that were used in previous ABC challenge.


 


In my opinion, if an easy use is the purpose of this, then it would be better if an organizator prepared a list of allowed haks for given theme in advance. Perhaps even a config hak that allows to use them together.



 



 


A few thoughts in response to this:


 


1) Promoting new content is actually one of the purposes of the hak sponsorship system.


 


2) I believe there was, and if not I will implement, a rule that if one made a sequel to an earlier ABC submission, one could use any haks actually made use of in the original module in the sequel as well, even if they had ceased to be sponsored in the interim.


 


3) I find your idea of requiring the use of a limited number of thematically related haks (perhaps as a secondary theme or even as an alternative to a separate theme) interesting. It is a bit late to change the hak system for this cycle, but I suppose doing something of the sort in the future could be considered if enough prospective participants are interested in trying something like that.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Verilazic

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2014, 11:35:18 pm »


               


In case it was not clear, the current points system is not going to be used in the future, and whatever replaces it will definitely be a lot simpler. As I already indicated, I am leaning towards simply restoring the original "Completion prize or not" system, which is about as simple as one can get.




 


Fair enough. And sorry, I probably just missed that part of the discussion. >.<


               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2014, 02:35:47 pm »


               

The next ABC cycle will soon commence (I am planning the official announcement to come out in a day or two). My plan is to provide a month or so to complete a playable "first draft" of a module which then will be submitted to the organizer (i.e. me). I will then sit on it for two weeks, during which time one can submit a more polished version to replace it, if desired. At the end of that period, the latest version I possess of the submitted modules will be released in a combined entry.


 


A list of the CC sponsors available for this cycle is available here. Take a look and see if there is anything you might want to use.


 


The main business remaining is choosing themes/adventure seeds. Being distracted by other matters, I was not able to give much thought as to whether there was a better way of choosing them, so again I will roll dice to randomly pick a couple themes from each of the following lists (slightly modified versions of those used in the previous cycle):


 




 


1st List ("technical") - note levels should be considered approximate (e.g., if one got "Level 10 PC", one could also make a module for Level 9 or 11, or a scaleable module for Lvls. 8-12, etc.):


 


 Make a module for a...


 


1) Warrior PC (meaning primarily the classes with full BAB progression, fighters, barbarians, weapon masters, Dwarven Defenders, etc.).


2) Level 5 PC


3) Healer PC (primarily Cleric or Druid, but Bard or Paladin might work too)


4) Level 10 PC


5) Arcane Caster PC


6) Level 15 PC


7) Thief PC (one requiring stealth or other roguish skills, probably but not necessarily an actual rogue)


8) Level 20 PC


9) Druid or Ranger PC, or at least a wilderness themed adventure suitable for such classes


10) Level 25 PC


11) Shapechanger (probably a Shifter, but a caster with access to polymorph spells might work too)


12) Level 30 PC


13) Assassin (meaning a PC whose primary occupation is terminating high-value targets, not necessarily limited only to PCs who are Assassins in the sense of having taken levels in that class)


14) Level 35 PC


15) Bounty Hunter (I already did this, but I hardly exhausted the possibilities for this type of character)


16) Level 40 PC


17) PC who is a member of an order or organization with a distinctive code or ideology (I thought this up with monks or paladins in mind, but other class possibilities exist)


18) PC who is a wandering minstrel or some other kind of traveling performer (obviously suggested with bards in mind, but if you can make some other class work with the idea...)


 


...or make a module with


 


19) a Time Limit - must complete the adventure before time runs out.


20) a CCC Tie in - Pick one of the themes used for the monthly Custom Content Challenge, and make a module based on the same theme.


 


2nd List ("story"):


 


1) Weather or Not - Weather plays a pivotal role in the adventure


2) Disastrously Yours - Similar to the above, a disaster, natural or otherwise, plays a pivotal role in the adventure


3) A2B - A simple journey from point A to point B. What could go wrong? A lot, actually.


4) Trading Places - an adventure set in some alternate mirror universe, for example one where evil has triumphed and lives in the over-dark while the remnants of good huddle in the under-light.


5) Stop Frodo - Either the PC or an NPC has been charged with taking some artifact to the one place where it can be destroyed. Unfortuantely this quest was assigned by someone who was actually an agent of Evil, and this artifact is actually necessary to prevent said Evil from triumphing. The bearer of the artifact must somehow be stopped without being killed.


6) Meddling Kids - The PC comes across a town where all sorts of strange things are happening, and a group of teenagers and a talking dog are the only people with a clue as to the cause (more generally, a Scooby Doo inspired adventure, even if one that does not correspond to it that exactly).


7) Time Travel - Time travel is involved in the adventure in some way


8) Shakespearean - an adventure based on a Shakespeare play in some way


9) Inheritance - the PC has just inherited something that leads to adventure: could be an item, a tract of land, a title, a family curse, etc.


10) Save the Princess - A rescue mission. From Tristram to Dudley Doright, heroes for centuries have been tasked with getting the girl. (Note: it is permissible for the object of rescue to be someone other than a literal princess).


11) Storm the Castle - Some villain's citadel needs to be assaulted


12) Fairy Godmother - the PC is assigned a dangerous but heroic task by an NPC who also provides some magical aid in its accomplishment.


13) Escape - the PC finds himself held captive, and perhaps stripped of his gear, by hostile forces, and must somehow escape.


14) Everybody Out - everyone's minions/henchmen/whatever have gone on strike, and it is not clear why. The local adventurers' guild/thieves' guild/whatever is offering a reward to whoever can resolve the matter.


15) Amnesia - the PC begins the adventure not knowing who he is or how he ended up in the circumstances in which he finds himself. Naturally answers to these questions, and the question of how he came to forget them, must be found.


16) Siege - an adventure set in a city under siege (or maybe in the besieger's camp).


17) Mysterious Artifact - An artifact has been discovered, and its purpose or some secret concerning it must be sought out.


18) Double Agent - the PC is tasked with infiltrating some nefarious group so as to undermine it from within. This could, but need not, involve a Shifter who can assume the form of kobolds, drow, dragons, or other monsters.


19) The Great Voyage - the PC must undertake a long and arduous journey to some exotic destination, encountering adventures along the way. As an alternative to depicting the entire voyage in one shot, one might also plan a series of modules to be completed over multiple cycles, each involving a particular episode of travel.


20) Murder Mystery - a murder has been committed and the PC must figure out who is responsible. As an alternative, one could adapt the murder mystery format to deal with some other crime or mysterious occurrence.


 


Among other slight adjustments, I removed the "story" ideas used in the previous cycle ("Plague" and "Blast from the Past" - the latter should be reintroduced in future cycles but I would prefer not to use it twice in a row), and added a couple new ones derived from various suggestions. For this cycle I also removed the hak-limiting options from the first list (we have some new sponsors and I would prefer to encourage participants to make use of their content), though again they may be back in the future.


 


We will soon see what the dice choose for us.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_KlatchainCoffee

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2014, 05:14:33 pm »


               

I'll rush in my brief random opinion (Edit: that appears to be a bit out of date, upon closer examination).


 


Building modules in NWN is what crazy people (like me) might do for the sheer fun of it. If I were a participant, scoring would certainly not be high among my concerns. But... some ideas none the less.


 


Potential scoring inequalities can be alleviated by introducing 'heavyweight' and 'lightweight' categories with each having a different area count/hours of play spread (or even single player/multiplayer categories). Alternatively mods can be graded along different parameters: Story/Action/Appearance/Overall (as is done in sports containing creative & technical elements).


 


At the end of the day, getting some constructive feedback and knowing people have played and enjoyed their creations is what most module builders hope for.


 


If I get a bit of time (somehow... miraculously...), I hope to have a closer look at ABC in general and perhaps even take part. '<img'>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

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Future of the ABC
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2014, 12:18:42 pm »


               




...If I get a bit of time (somehow... miraculously...), I hope to have a closer look at ABC in general and perhaps even take part. '<img'>




 


The Summer 2014 ABC has commenced, so check it out if you do find some time. The same goes for any other interested parties following this thread, naturally.