Darkness over Daggerford

[Legacy_henesua]

               Since I gave Wyvern Crown a whirl I also decided to check out Darkness over Daggerford. I didn't find a thread on the mod so made this one.

Overall I am shocked at the low quality of this module. Sure it has its good qualities (and it better given the resources poured into this one), BUT I expect more from Ossian because their praises are sung so highly. It does have the Baldur's Gate feel going for it - meaning it has a million unrelated side quests sprinkling the story line, and it has the gimick of the overland map. But given how long development went on and that the team was lead by a industry professional... I am amazed at how bad it is. The writing in this module is at best mediocre, and at worst embarassing.

Essentially Darkness over Daggerford feels like a B movie with a block buster budget. It tries to look polished, but falls flat in the attempt while taking itself too seriously. It is fun to play, but you have to look the other way when you read conversation lines. There is also little challenge to the combats or the puzzles - which I would think would be the focus on a Baldur's Gate style game.

Again I do find the play of it fun. It is fun exploring the world and seeing what quests you can find. And a few of the puzzles were admittedly challenging. And while that is all fine for a free module (which this is), I expected more of something so highly rated and made by professionals with the intent of producing a commercial grade product.

I think the opening movie is telling for this mod. The voice in that film sounds like he's unwittyingly parodying fantasy RPGs. My first thought was "is this a joke? this is funny" and went with it with a smile on my face, but then realized that the overly serious tone with the false deep voice ... was supposed to be drammatic. And then I thought, "wow these guys take themselves too seriously".

I should probably be asking what happened during this module's development. If they had a large team on this guided by someone who knows how to make games... how did it come to this? Were they leaving the writing to the end, but then their shot at a Premium Module release was cancelled so they just pushed it out? That would make sense, and undercut a great deal of my criticism. This was after all free.  [edit] But it wasn't intended to be free so I'd like to understand. Perhaps I'm just too critical. BUT there is better content on the vault made by amateurs working by themselves or in smaller teams.

So rather than rip on DoD which I have done a little too much I'd like to hear what the community knows about this project, and ask for a bit of a post mortem (or links to one if there is one).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_werelynx]

               I was dissapointed by the keep, the idea could be explored more than just furnishing the castle.
The numerous bugs show that Ossian did not care to fix them. Good that they at least gave the module to the community - not everyone would do that.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Malagant]

               

henesua wrote...

Since I gave Wyvern Crown a whirl I also decided to check out Darkness over Daggerford. I didn't find a thread on the mod so made this one.

Overall I am shocked at the low quality of this module. Sure it has its good qualities (and it better given the resources poured into this one), BUT I expect more from Ossian because their praises are sung so highly.

This all seems a bit too critical when you consider that DoD was Ossian's first project. Denegrating it because you feel they've done much better after they matured is like saying you expect better special effects from a film in the 80's when compared to one made today. They were just starting out, self-funded, hired prominent amateur modders from the fan community, went through five designers in pre production (none of whom worked out, and this meant having to move forward on the module before having everything laid out), and most of the game's design was coordinated online using Skype (keep in mind at this point in the company's existance it was basically Miranda and his wife).

Comparing Ossian of today with the available resources to Ossian just beginning is a bit disingenuous.

Most of what you'll be able to find on it can be found by searching the vault; Sorcerers Place has an interview here:
www.sorcerers.net/Main/Articles/darkness_over_daggerford_interview.php

Another here:
www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

                "A film in the 80's when compared to one made today" could make today look very pale... even if I'm fully aware you're talking about 'special effects' only. 
'Special effects' don't make a movie. 
Now I agree with you, seeing all the modules series I played, the latest chapters are often the best ones. 
But, "a best shot should be the first one". 
(Al Capone, 'Al Catraz memories') <<< '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 30 septembre 2011 - 11:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Malagant wrote...

This all seems a bit too critical when you consider that DoD was Ossian's first project. Denegrating it because you feel they've done much better after they matured is like saying you expect better special effects from a film in the 80's when compared to one made today.

Actually I don't know how Ossian's later work measures up as I have not played any of it, but DoD was highly regarded at the time. I appologize for communicating poorly in the above post. Let me clarify: my main criticism is that a professional lead who was supported by a team he selected and had funding produced a lower quality module than I would expect. In comparison, amateurs working on their own have produced better modules. The Wanderer for example is a much better conceived module than DoD, and BHP created that on his own.

They were just starting out, self-funded, hired prominent amateur modders from the fan community,

Alan Miranda who headed the project had worked on NWN and the Baldur's Gate franchise. He had years of experience (and connections) prior to working on DoD.

went through five designers in pre production (none of whom worked out, and this meant having to move forward on the module before having everything laid out), and most of the game's design was coordinated online using Skype (keep in mind at this point in the company's existance it was basically Miranda and his wife).

so what happened here? bad management? perhaps herein lies the problem. too many false starts, poorly handling your talent. I dunno. I don't have enough information. BUT biggest problem was with the writing. It seems to me that you just need one decent writer to pull off all the conversation text.

Comparing Ossian of today with the available resources to Ossian just beginning is a bit disingenuous.

I never did so. I appologize if it seemed that I was.

Most of what you'll be able to find on it can be found by searching the vault; Sorcerers Place has an interview here:
www.sorcerers.net/Main/Articles/darkness_over_daggerford_interview.php

Another here:
www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php

thanks I'll ee if there is anything related to a post-mortem in there.



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[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               I agree with the OP. I found DoD to be poorly written, and poorly implemented. It had a great story, but the whole module just felt sloppy. As if they never even gave a second thought to proofing anything before they released it. After all I had read about it, I expected it to be better. It wasn't the worst NWN module I've played, but it was no where near the top of the list, either.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TimG]

               As I recall there was a certain amount of "uncertainty" about Darkness Over Daggerford from it's initial stages onward.  As it was finished and released for FREE when the premium module program failed I think it was a good value.  I can see where the participants in the project would have cut corners at the end as a person has to make a living.  Also, just imagine being caught between Bioware and Atari in those times...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               

werelynx wrote...
Good that they at least gave the module to the community - not everyone would do that.

How do you say in english? Seconding? 
Seconding. This is so damn right...
Not to mention that's exactly what every single commmunity builder did and does. 
But still, nice move. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               DoD was over a full year, likely closer to 18 months from being a "finished and quality tested" product, when the Premium mods were cancelled.  They released it to the public for free, so you can't really complain much about it.  Otherwise, it would have been LOST forever, like most of the CODI content was lost and other bits of content that had been created by other premium mod teams that got cancelled.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Bannor Bloodfist, 30 septembre 2011 - 08:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Estelindis]

               Personally, I really enjoyed DoD.  I'm sorry not everyone feels the same way.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               I did enjoy DoD, to be honest. But DoD's merit is its quantity not its quality, and I find it surprising that it was produced by an experienced professional.

I would expect that the consensus on DoD is that it was fun to play but not worthy of praise nor particularly memorable. That it was a guilty pleasure more John Grisham/JK Rowling than Hemmingway/Ursula K LeGuin. Another metaphor would be a comparison between eating hershey chocolate bars versus a cake made by a professional baker. DoD is more like a Hershey Bar (or twenty given its size). I'm not going to rave about that experience. But when I eat a really good cake, I'm going to tell others about it and encourage them to try it.

Players gush about it. Fine fine. I can accept that. Danielle Steele was a best seller and now lives in a fat Pacific Heights mansion because of it. I get it. No problem. But if you look at it with a critical eye, its faults are obvious.

Anyway all that aside, I hope that something constructive comes out of this discussion as opposed to just ripping on the quality of DoD. I would like to understand how they ended up with what they did. If people would prefer to cling to the mass consensus that DoD is a quality module - or at least should not be criticized because it was free - then so be it, and I'll leave it at that. But its disatisfying. I'd like to be able to learn from this.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 01 octobre 2011 - 12:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Malagant]

               I was apparently mistaken on the camparison bit, for that was how I interpreted some of your statements. I thank you for the clarification. Let me also clarify that I was very specific in stating "expect better special effects from a film in the 80's when compared to one made today", special effects being the focus of the expectation, not the film as a whole else I would have written "expect a better film from the 80's compared to the special effects of today".

I had the sense that your main question is what could have caused this lapse in design. I find it a little odd to ask a question then be immediately dismissive of any commentary that supports an answer or answers directly relevant to your question of "Why?"

One professional man just starting out with his wife, SELF-funded, hiring other members of the community, with no brick and moarter base of operations (other than their home, all other communication having to have been done over the internet), and, as Bannor and I pointed out, having your whole project plans scrapped with a year to 18 months to go... well, that would pretty much affect the quality of any programming efforts.

Take for example the whole KotOR II scenario and LucasArts telling Obisdian, who had probably another 6 months to a year of work left, we'd really like this out by this upcoming Christmas so we can cash in on the consumer's holiday spending... no negotiations. Guess what? It suffered.

Whatever the opinion on the modue, it's a constellation of events that had an impact on it that they did their best through. There's a huge difference between working for a company and running one no matter your experience, having available financing and financing something yourself out of pocket, and I'm certain having the rug pulled out from under you 6-18 months prematurely means spending the time (and money) to make a complete module for which you'll receive no compensation isn't exactly an economical choice when starting a business.

There's fault to be found in vanilla NWN, all it's expansions, and just about every module and PW out there. I think you have valid points in your criticism of the module (though we differ on it's enjoyment factor)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Malagant, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy__six]

               My general opinion on DoD was that while I in large part liked the story and quests, some very much so, a lot of the low level writing, ie dialogue and journal entries, was pretty bad. Some of it suffered from what I've grown to call Fester Pot syndrome, where all his characters sound like New Yorkers trying so hard to sound British they come out the other side and sound even more American. (Not to discredit FP, though, as Almraiven/Shadewood is my favourite NWN module ever)

A few specific quests stood out to me as very good even in that respect, such as one involving a vampire near your keep, but it's been too long since I played it for me to be certain of the details.

Another thing that annoyed me was that some of the monsters DLA created seemed to have been included purely because they seemed like something that'd be cool to have, with no real logical place in the game. I mean, a giant f***ing spider is never a bad thing, but a giant f***ing spider with no buildup is a waste of a giant f***ing spider.

Oh, and I also thought the intro movie was awful. I'm guessing that was done in a hurry though, as such things are generally afterthoughts in terms of the project cycle.

I'd have plenty of good things to say about it too if I could remember what they were. I guess the bad things stand out more, particularly with a module set in such a generic area of the forgotten realms. I guess a lot of things you just come to expect from the genre and setting, and it's only noteworthy when they're under par.

I actually had a bit of a chat with Alan Miranda about DOD. As far as I could tell, most of my criticisms he either agreed or empathized with. A candle for the future, there.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 02 octobre 2011 - 12:06 .