Foundation

[Legacy_painofdungeoneternal]

               Bic's are server side only, it would only need NWNx. The two servers would share the bics, would have to hook the code that does the portaling, and I seem to remember lag issues messing up getting portaling to work in NWN2. Definitely a discussion to have with Virusman, Baaleos, anyone involved in NWNx  really.

A message from server to client, well if my app is running ( and it would actually be most likely unless users close it ), but frankly I'd think this would have to be a NWNCX plugin. I really plan on getting the content situated on joining the first server, which is why I do a launcher, so i can hook the play button ( I am not Virusman who can do this in game ), but I can listen on a given port for messages, or do a command line thing and update things as needed once my app is aware. Long term, now that we have NWNCX I probably will start recreating my finished system as a plugin in C++ after it's debugged and solid and completed.

If the files are only NWN1 file types, and the client software refuses to put them outside of the NWN1 folders, there is minimal security issues. ( Grinning fool worked this out with the AutoDownloader for NWN2, and I plan on following him in restricting things)

I am planning to refuse EXE's, DLL's on the client by default unless the API itself approves them as coming from trusted sources with special exceptions to allow them, with matching sha1 signatures, might even throw up a dialog as well for the end user - part of this is forcing the content providers not to do stupid things which cause more problems - and also might let the community exact some concessions such as source code review to ensure nothing is awry, and perhaps also refusing actual patching of the exe and forcing use of loading via detours ( which means working with NWNCX.) which does not actually touch the game files.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 19 février 2013 - 06:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Pain, I meant with regards to autodownloading the HAKs for the server that the PC is transporting to.

But I am glad to ehar that the security risk would be minimal.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

If the files are only NWN1 file types, and the client software refuses to put them outside of the NWN1 folders, there is minimal security issues. ( Grinning fool worked this out with the AutoDownloader for NWN2, and I plan on following him in restricting things).

               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 19 février 2013 - 06:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_KlatchainCoffee]

               Can I assume that low magic/low level HCR-using settings would also be supported? Flexibility in the variety of settings has already been proposed, so hopefully that's a 'yes'.

I believe that concerns raised in the other thread about ensuring this gets the needed wide use are legitimate, but can be overcome if this is pitched to people in the right way and is, in effect, easy to use/implement. There may be further ways of attracting people and making it a standard when the time comes.

I have for a while given some thought of how not only to provide a satisfying experience to veteran players, but how to involve people who had never touched NWN before. It is a tall task for an old game, but with everything that the community itself produced since the time NWN came out, it is not really quite the same game anymore. And the toolset - its flexibility and ease of use for non-coders is one of the main reasons for its endurance, the DM client, where you play not against a 'well-arranged, set machine', but against DM-led spontaneity in story and action is another.

Although I must be careful not to over-commit, I would be happy to help out in any way I can.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               

KlatchainCoffee wrote...

Can I assume that low magic/low level HCR-using settings would also be supported? Flexibility in the variety of settings has already been proposed, so hopefully that's a 'yes'.

I don't see any reason this would be a problem. Stripping powerful items and delevelling characters is pretty easy. Going back to a higher-level setting... is a bit harder. As far as HCR, that's based on the scripts the server implements, so it's entirely up the builder.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Akin Akinli]

               I'm really glad I found this thread.  I've been thinking that something like this needed to be done for a long time (several years), but I despaired of it ever actually happening.  I've also been thinking about how we might put together something like this for a long time, but I don't want to create a huge post, so let me try to keep it brief (I'm sure I'll fail).  I think the problems facing NWN as a PW platform stem from three major issues:

   1) The relatively small size (<64 players) of the NWN server
   2) Custom content stored in HAK packs
   3) The file-based storage system for module content

I think a project like this can succeed, and even thrive.  I think it can even lead to a reneaissance for this game (which I would love to see).  I don't think that it can do this without addressing these three core issues.

The first issue is one that we really can't "fix" and is the reason that we're having the discussion about a multi-server solutions -- 64 players just isn't enough by itself.  The answer is obvious, but there are variations on how to implement it.  Should it be a "Hall of Worlds," a PW lobby of sorts, a consortium of like-minded PWs with common quests, or a more tightly integrated Meta-PW spanning multiple servers.  Speaking simply from a player perspective here, I think the most attractive answer lies between the last two options.  In fact, you could argue that there's no difference between the last two options for practical purposes.

The second issue is, I believe, the reason for the decline of the game.  The content in HAK packs, and, to a lesser degree, scripting systems is single biggest cause of the Balnkanization of the NWN PW community.  Worst of all, it's almost entirely unnecessary.  Good storytelling (on the DM/PW admin side) and good roleplaying (on the player side) obviates the need for most of this.  Most, if not all, of us here are readers, and the most powerful draw to reading is how it engages the imagination.  The same is true of NWN, and I'd suggest extreme caution in the use of any addons, except where they address our third problem.

Which is, of course, that the basic game engine stores its data in static files that are accessed at game start.  This is fine for a single-player game where changes to those files will happen only with a few subsequent patches by the module author. For a PW, with hundreds or even thousands of changes and with ideally few or no restarts, it's a disaster.  For a muti-server cooperative venture, it's a disaster with another logistical disaster piled on top.  

Fortunately, we have a tool that let's us remove almost all content from the module file and store it instead in an enterprise-level database with internet connectivity.  Creatures, items, placeables, conversations, traps, custom items, and even areas can all be stored (as text) in MySQL using NWNX.  The only things left in the module file are the area templates and the scripts for accessing the database.  Best of all, you can connect mutiple servers to a single MySQL database, integrating them without the need for careful coordination.  Alternatively, you could add the same scripts to an existing PW.  Because the areas would be created dynamically, the server could function as before, only spawining new areas as players wandered in to pursue whatever quests were placed there by the master database.

I truly believe this to be a way to revive NWN, and perhaps even make as popular as it once was.  It offers us a chance to convert the game into a small, but flexible, MMORPG (well maybe just mMORPG).  I also think that it lowers the barrier to participation in every possible way, which seems to me to be crucial.  I'd love to hear what y'all think about this, and if it kicks off any ideas in you heads.  Please be gentle.

Akin
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Akin Akinli, 22 février 2013 - 06:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Akin Akinli wrote...

   1) The relatively small size (<64 players) of the NWN server
   2) Custom content stored in HAK packs
   3) The file-based storage system for module content

AD 1) The NWNX can allow raise this cap a bit, but the problem is that the engine is not efficient for many players and it cause lags after a while if there are more players in the same area. Especially if they killing creatures in a huge party.
Anyway - you wont get so many players anyway, because the diverse in PW modules and the choices offered, each player finds it own PW and only a few PWs ever get so many players. Recently Sinfar broke records in the player count, but thats an exception because of the game style that I think brought into this community many new players that never played NWN before (which is a good thing).
Big PWs like Sinfar and HG also found a way around this via secondary server instances with shared DB and playervault. HG stepped farther in this when they running 10 servers (might not be accurate atm) that reset often and they encourage a diablo style of play so players make a run at server1 and then repeat it at server2.

AD2) HAK packs aren't that big evil. They are usefull as you can download for example a compilation of thousand baseitem icons in a single file. Of course, there is missing compression feature... What is evil are 2DAs and part-based models '>

AD3) if you mean what i think then Sinfar already avoided this issue entirely. With a use of resman plugin for NWNX, you can store all module files inside folders on harddrive of the server. Then with a plugin that allows to alter GFF files from a NWScript, you can maintant a persistency easily. To make it viable, you need a web-based development. Sinfar already have all of this. Their development "studio" isnt comfortable as toolset is, but it allows realtime cooperation of multiple builders which was also always an issue.

Not sure if Sinfar cares to make it public, but as you see the solution for this problem already exist.


The unsolved problem is still the need for a 2DA files and thus a special hak for each PW with its own content and need to distribute this hak and its 2DAs to the clients.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_virusman]

               For #1, there is NWNX Optimizations plugin that may help with lag (at least in PvM battles).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               I appologize for the silence here. I've been wrapped up in lots of stuff most notably that thing we call RL.

So in order to move forward on this we need marshal forces and work together. I think this project will require horizontal organization if it is to get anywhere, but I understand a few might need to be shown what needs to be done so I'll help to organize things. Before I get to that I need people who are interested in getting involved, regardless of skill level, to do the following:

• Join (if you haven't already) the BSN group FOUNDATION
• Answer the ROLL CALL thread

I need to get on the website Rolo created and to start organizing the project into tasks that those interested can take on. But I'd like to see an earnest show of hands, and what skill sets we have to work with. No skill set is too small. Enthusiasm is the most important asset. So lets get rolling.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Aikidoka23]

               Just seen this, and need to read in depth, but I think I was pretty much sold on the first post. I'll show my hand in earnest when I've absorbed the thread properly.