Build Reqeust: Rouge Weapon Master

[Legacy_Q.dot]

               I need someone character expertise to help me with a build. I want to
have rogue multi class as a fighter, and then a weapon master, focusing
with a katana, and then in epic levels focus with a kukri, so he ends up
duel wielding the two. But I want to maintain a stealth aspect of a
rogue. Think of it as a ninja assassin. (I posted this in the character build guild but have yet to recive any relpys.)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_spool32]

               Rouge WMs always have pink and healthy cheeks while they destroy their enemies. Fabulous!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Questions:  Do you simply want to focus with both weapon types OR have both as WM weapons of choice as well as focus?  Given 100% picture, how much of the build would you like focused on attack/damage and how much on AC?  How important is damage reduction to you vs. all the other prereqs you have furnished?  I am assuming that the ninja theme is only a general classification and that roleplay has little to do with this conceptualization.  Is that assumption correct?  (Trying to get a more detailed snapshot of how it will be played.)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Q.dot]

               Yeah the ninja theme is general, I would like the build focused on attack/damage and also use stealth. As for the focus on the weapons, what would you recommend?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Q.dot wrote...
Yeah the ninja theme is general, I would like the build focused on attack/damage and also use stealth. As for the focus on the weapons, what would you recommend?

Here is dilemma when dual-wielding a non-finessable weapon like a katana:  You can't use a Dex build because the AB will only be derived from the Str modifier for that weapon (i.e. the katana).  Lower Dex has a direct effect on stealth effectiveness so in this build it becomes a Catch-22.

Of course, there are ways to raise both Str and Dex equally to accomodate this, like levels in RDD, but it will always result in a much lower overall attack than maxing one ability.

A pure Dex kukrimaster (dual-wielding 2 kukris) is far superior and has none of the AC problems inherent to a Str build. It still has the typical dexer problem of finding an adequate damage source, however.  Wpn Spec feats help, but a WM relies on crits to achieve the higher damage.  Overwhelming Crit and DevCrit are unavailable to a Dex build.  IIRC there are several good kukrimaster builds available on the ECB.

But the uniqueness of a katana/kukri build is always worth exploring... so here is a suggested non-DevCrit build that will address most of the needs of your request:

Slightly stealthy dual-wield katana mh/kukri oh per Hip 110212

F15/WM22/R3, Human
STR 17 (30)
DEX 15
CON 12
WIS 8
INT 13
CHA 8

HP 488 (448 w/Blind Fight)
BAB 30@Lvl 40
AB max naked - 49 (melee)/33 (range)
AC (naked/std armor&shield) - 22/32
Saves F/R/W - 21/21/15

1 F(1) Dodge, Mobility, 2-Weapon Fighting
2 F(2) Expertise
3 F(3) Ambidexterity
4 F(4) STR+1, Weapon Prof: Exotic
5 F(5)
6 F(6) WF: Katana, Spring Attack
7 F(7)
8 F( STR+1, WS: Katana
9 F(9) Whirlwind Attack
10 WM(1) WoC: Katana
11 WM(2)
12 F(10) STR+1, WF: Kukri, WS: Kukri
13 WM(3)
14 WM(4)
15 F(11) Imp Crit: Katana
16 WM(5) STR+1
17 WM(6)
18 WM(7) Toughness**
19 F(12) Imp 2-Weapon Fighting
20 F(13) STR+1
21 *R(1) EWF: Katana
22 WM(
23 WM(9)
24 WM(10) STR+1, Imp Crit: Kukri
25 WM(11)
26 WM(12)
27 WM(13) EWF: Kukri, WoC: Kukri
28 WM(14) STR+1
29 WM(15)
30 WM(16) Grt Str 1, Armor Skin
31 WM(17)
32 WM(18) STR+1
33 WM(19) Grt Str 2, Epic Prowess
34 WM(20)
35 WM(21)
36 R(2) STR+1, Grt Str 3 [Evasion]
37 F(14) EWS: Katana
38 WM(22) Epic Toughness
39 F(15) EWS: Kukri
40 R(3) STR+1 [Unc Dodge]

Skills@40 - Disc 42(52), Hide 43(45), Intim 4(3), Move Sil 43(45), Tumb 40(42), left=14

SkPt Alloc
1> Hide(4), Intim(4), Move Sil(4), Tumb(4), Sv=24
2> Disc(5), Sv=23
3-20 (each level)> Disc(1), Total Sv=77
21> Hide(20), Move Sil(20), Tumb(20), Sv=27
22> Disc(2), Sv=29
23-39 (each level)> Disc(1), Total Sv=80
40> Hide(19), Move Sil(19), Tumb(16), left=14

Comments
*By moving Rogue (1) to level 1, 22 skillpoints can be gained but 1AB is lost.   The extra skills may be preferred.(re: Intimidate as cross-class for fighter & rogue multiplier at char create). The feat sequence will need to modified slightly to accomodate this change.
**Blind Fight is conspicuously missing and can be subbed for Toughness if -40HPs isn't too painful.
AC is quite low, so vamp regen is recommended, if available, on weapons.  Also, with a high base AB like this, expertise mode can add +5AC during combat.  Weapon Spec (4 places) can also be eliminated to free up 4 feats.

You should be able to at least notice how feat-intensive a design like this can be and how it limits the overall effectiveness for the sake of innovation.

edit:  BTW, I believe many of the old ECB members frequent the World of Greyhawk forum here.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 13 février 2011 - 02:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

Here is dilemma when dual-wielding a non-finessable weapon like a katana:  You can't use a Dex build because the AB will only be derived from the Str modifier for that weapon (i.e. the katana). 
...
Overwhelming Crit and DevCrit are unavailable to a Dex build. 

Obviously both of those statements may be wrong depending on environment.

Taking Toughness over Blind Fight is just plain wrong.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

qaerinju wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...
Here is dilemma when dual-wielding a non-finessable weapon like a katana:  You can't use a Dex build because the AB will only be derived from the Str modifier for that weapon (i.e. the katana). 
...
Overwhelming Crit and DevCrit are unavailable to a Dex build. 

Obviously both of those statements may be wrong depending on environment.

I, for one, would like to learn how 1) katana can be finessed and 2) how both base Str and base Dex can be elevated equally into 25+ range in a single build without specially-customized items, classes or scripting. Please divulge the details of those environments because it is not obvious to me.  Better yet, suggest an effective Dex build for the OP's katana/kukri dual-wield request.

Taking Toughness over Blind Fight is just plain wrong.

When confronting concealed foes, I agree.  Plain invisibles are only a problem until they attack which ends the advantage. For the majority of enemies, concealment seldom comes into play.  Concealed bosses are rare, where the extra HPs may be of more value.  The debate over the general usefulness of Blind Fight has been hashed before, hence the easy-swap alternative provided.  Employing a stealthy attack should limit the amount of flanking by foes, concealed or otherwise.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 13 février 2011 - 07:56 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               2 examples for you:



http://highergroundp...lay&thread=6668



https://docs.google....34LUOvkIyqew104



As for suggesting any build to people who can't be bothered to specify the environment in their request, forget about it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Q.dot]

               ok, so what would be the DnD equivalent of a ninja.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN DM]

               

Q.dot wrote...

Yeah the ninja theme is general, I would like the build focused on attack/damage and also use stealth. As for the focus on the weapons, what would you recommend?

Ninja's traditionally wear black, not red.

Or will this be some kind of affirmative action Rouge Weapon Master?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

NWN DM wrote...
Ninja's traditionally wear black, not red.

Or will this be some kind of affirmative action Rouge Weapon Master?

Cinnabar Din must be on a sabbatical.