Author Topic: A call for quality & collaberation...  (Read 2913 times)

Legacy_henesua

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2012, 03:57:19 am »


               

ShadowM wrote...

Yes, I agree with all the rest. I was just trying to focus on the DM part, it is the DM forum. I was not trying to connect a builder skill set to a DM skill set. Was trying to say that a lot of PNP DMing skills can transfer over to NWN DMing. Sorry if this got lost in my comment.


Oh yes, I agree with that. I think PnP DM skills can translate to NWN, but I don't see them as the same activity. As I think PnP DMing relies more on world building skills than RP skills unless you use premade modules/settings. In my own experience doing both, my skillset is much more as a builder, and while this served me well as a PnP DM, it does not serve me well as an NWN DM. In fact for the many decades I DM'd PnP RPGs I was usually the one asked to run the game, and I've got some friends who are very good DMs, but in NWN I routinely fall flat, and so must rely on another DM to help me with Arnheim. And it isn't just me, I've witnessed this amongst other team members at Vives which I've been part of for the past 6 years. 
               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2012, 01:46:19 pm »


               Removed
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _Guile, 15 mai 2012 - 01:08 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2012, 03:04:03 pm »


               

henesua wrote...

There is a fundamental difference between the two activities. You can not "build" while you are DMing NWN. You can when running a game in PnP. Thus the NWN DM can not generate new countries, cities, cultures on the fly as you can during a PnP game, at most an NWN DM can manipulate what happens within the world made by the builder. Neither can the NWN DM change the ruleset on the fly, generate novel items or creatures etc....



While I agree in principal that there are fundamental differences in the powers available to DMs from PNP to NWN, but we have broken down a number of these limits specifically to bring NWN closer to PNP D&D. We script tools to enable PCs as well as DMs here with an eye toward removing the limits of NWN when doing so.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_kalbaern

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2012, 03:08:54 pm »


               While there are many folk that can wear all hats, not everyone is capable of being a great Admin, Builder and DM all rolled into one. Nor should they be expected to be. If you run a small module with a small player base, then yes, its a big help if you can do all these "jobs" well, but ... most successful PWs will diversify, share the load and thrive for it.

Admins: You can be a great Admin and even Host a module and have little or no skills when it comes to the toolset or scripting so long as you've others to fill those roles.

Builders/Scripters: You can be a world class builder or scripter and still lack the skills to DM. Knowing "what" the players desire or what your PW's focus is has little effect on crossing over from the toolset to the game live. Some of the most creative folk I've known in this Community fail massively as an IG DM. Not everyone can shift gears from going from the oft slow and tedious job of not only making an area that is challenging and fun to the faster paced action of live DMing. Failing at DMing live has little impact on building.

DMs: IG DMs are a breed apart. I think the best DMs are creative and "quick on the draw". While having a good grasp of using various widgets and DM commands helps, this is also all secondary to "how" a DM reacts otherwise IG. DMs that constantly consider characters actions and interactions instead of running events where the outcome is predetermined and player's characters are participating, but cannot affect the outcome are the best DMs. DMing skills IG have no bearing on how well that same person can build. Nor should they be expected to build and if they do, they should be expected to master it.

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On my own PW, we've "all types".

- Myself, while I can be a decent DM, I also lack the will or patience to pull it off on a regular basis. I spend an hour or two most eves in the toolset building and scripting, then log into my PW's Forum and don my Admin hat to deal with player issues, answer questions, comment of suggestions, etc... . Afte that, while I often log in as a DM, I'm tired, I'm cranky and I really don't want to spend what's left of my already limited time running events. So I don't.

- I do however have a talented and diverse group of DMs thankfully. I really, really, really do mean "thankfully". While most couldn't build their way out of a wet paper sack ... they excell in the duties of day to day DMing for our players. This buys me the time to continue building and scripting that is ever sorely needed.

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DMing is not just about mechanics and good story-telling either. You need the right temperament and maturity to do it. I've known lots of creative folks over the years that as players could astound you, but when made DMs they fail epicly as they lack the ability to be neutral and objective with others as a whole. I've seen DMs fail by virtue of wanting to be liked too much. I've seen DMs fail because they bore personal grudges against Player "X". Often though, these same failed DMs can be great builders. I know, I have a few folk that while failing miserably as DMs none-the-less excell in the toolset still.

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The key component to all the above is communication. DM "A" needs to communicate and share schedules and outcomes of their events with DMs "B" and "C" as well as Admins/Builders on a regular basis so all can stay on the same page. nothing is more disruptive that two or more DMs using NPCs to promote plots or events that conflict.

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The "type" of PW also has a big bearing on DMs and how successful they are. On my own Pw which is founded as a Forgotten Realms Module located in NW/NC Faerun, a DM spawning a herd of vorpal bunnies would be immersion breaking. However, on many other PWs such would be just fine. So knowledge of what if any themes and sources a PW is centered around is just as crucial. This also ties into "communication". As the Admin/Builder I need to communicate my own desires/expectations/rules to my DM Team on a regular basis.

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In short, while the divergent roles of Admins, DMs and Builders will overlap and need to co-ordinate, there is no sound reasoning behind a claim that to be one, a person needs to be the other. Do you really expect the CEO of an Auto Company to go down and work the Assembly Lines? I'd not buy such a car. Do you expect the Architect that designed your home to actually pick up hammer and saw and build it too? God, I pray not. Failing at one task often has little or no bearing on another.

As for the OP, I contend that its neither a treatise on building or DMing, but rather a recruitment to build a better PW as evidenced in its closing lines. Anything prior to the closing statements was an outline of how to build the project being recruited for.

To be a good builder you need to have a solid grasp of DMing, you need to know "what your players want", and design adventures, and the module for that matter, with the player's interest in mind...


Knowing what players "want" and giving it to them are two separate topics. Why? Because "Players" want it all. ROFL. They will always want "more". Players will "want" to play Drow even if your PW lacks an actual Underdark. Players will "want" +5 weapons if your PW caps such at +3. Players will "want" more XP/GP/Mounts/Dev Crit Enabled/No Restrictions on HiPs Spamming and any number of things that can or will "unbalance a module. So knowing "what" Players desire has less impact than "sticking to a plan". Players will just as easilly adapt their desires and expectations to what is offerred so long as they are having "fun" in general.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par kalbaern, 11 mai 2012 - 02:15 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2012, 03:19:02 pm »


               

_Guile wrote...
I think Building & DMing are indicative in many respects, all scripting aside, however, PnP & NWN are very different in the DM retrospect because you aren't limited by what an Electronic Game can do & Silly Game Rule which you can't change...


Huh? You might want to spend more time on proofreading for content rather than pointless capitalization and insertion of needless clauses. I cannot make sense of this paragraph. Can you rephrase please? "indicative in many respects" of what?


_Guile wrote...
The original post was not about DMing


Agreed.
               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2012, 02:04:34 pm »


               So this thread didnt' belong here, I concede you win...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _Guile, 15 mai 2012 - 01:08 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2012, 07:34:30 pm »


               I'm not trying to be mean, just honest. The DMs (bless them all) are critical but they are only a slice of the whole - and your original post was very broad, needing the attention of builders, dms, players, admins, et. al.. I strongly suggest you try the post in the builder forum where more of those interested parties might find it.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_NWN DM

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2012, 01:35:44 am »


               My name keeps coming up in this thread....
               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2012, 04:44:59 am »


               Ears burning?
               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2012, 06:44:17 pm »


               

henesua wrote...

Yes, talented builders can work with the NWNX wrapper to enable an NWN DM to stretch the limitations of the engine. It doesn't change the fact that the core activities and skill sets of DMs and Builders respectively are different, and that the Toolset and DM Client are 2 separate applications that don't operate at the same time. Stating that there is some possibility of overlap is not relevant to the points that I was making, and it doesn't serve to defend Guile's assertion that good builders make good DMs and vice versa.

Furthermore, this is also not about the drawbacks of DMing in NWN relative to PnP. It is about demonstrating that the games are not the same to help others (such as Guile) recognize that the core proficiencies of an NWN DM are different from that of a builder. It is important that teams understand this so that they can develop and/or recognize team members who have these skills. A great builder does not necessarily make a great NWN DM and vice versa. So when you build a team, recognize what your talents are, and those around you, and figure out the best way to work together, and which gaps in your team that need to be filled.

Guile's main purpose seemed to be about gathering a team to make a great multiplayer module - ostensibly a PW. If that is going to happen, bad assumptions need to be tossed out.


Very well said sir...  I'm glad someone understood me...

DMing is not just about mechanics and good story-telling either. You
need the right temperament and maturity to do it. I've known lots of
creative folks over the years that as players could astound you, but
when made DMs they fail epicly as they lack the ability to be neutral
and objective with others as a whole. I've seen DMs fail by virtue of
wanting to be liked too much. I've seen DMs fail because they bore
personal grudges against Player "X". Often though, these same failed DMs
can be great builders. I know, I have a few folk that while failing
miserably as DMs none-the-less excell in the toolset still.


Exactly, your maturity & temperament are very important as a DM, as well as your view of what the players think too, after all, we build & dm to entertain, definitely... '<img'>
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _Guile, 19 mai 2012 - 05:47 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_kalbaern

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 12:12:36 am »


               

_Guile wrote...

henesua wrote...

Yes, talented builders can work with the NWNX wrapper to enable an NWN DM to stretch the limitations of the engine. It doesn't change the fact that the core activities and skill sets of DMs and Builders respectively are different, and that the Toolset and DM Client are 2 separate applications that don't operate at the same time. Stating that there is some possibility of overlap is not relevant to the points that I was making, and it doesn't serve to defend Guile's assertion that good builders make good DMs and vice versa.

Furthermore, this is also not about the drawbacks of DMing in NWN relative to PnP. It is about demonstrating that the games are not the same to help others (such as Guile) recognize that the core proficiencies of an NWN DM are different from that of a builder. It is important that teams understand this so that they can develop and/or recognize team members who have these skills. A great builder does not necessarily make a great NWN DM and vice versa. So when you build a team, recognize what your talents are, and those around you, and figure out the best way to work together, and which gaps in your team that need to be filled.

Guile's main purpose seemed to be about gathering a team to make a great multiplayer module - ostensibly a PW. If that is going to happen, bad assumptions need to be tossed out.


Very well said sir...  I'm glad someone understood me...

DMing is not just about mechanics and good story-telling either. You
need the right temperament and maturity to do it. I've known lots of
creative folks over the years that as players could astound you, but
when made DMs they fail epicly as they lack the ability to be neutral
and objective with others as a whole. I've seen DMs fail by virtue of
wanting to be liked too much. I've seen DMs fail because they bore
personal grudges against Player "X". Often though, these same failed DMs
can be great builders. I know, I have a few folk that while failing
miserably as DMs none-the-less excell in the toolset still.


Exactly, your maturity & temperament are very important as a DM, as well as your view of what the players think too, after all, we build & dm to entertain, definitely... '<img'>


Wait! Are you really Bill Clinton? I mean, you just quoted two folk that disagreed with the majority of your own premises, but ... since you've deleted your own previous comments you now spin what's left to your side. Masteful, truly masterful sir. However, having deleted those posts, you should forfeit further comments, seriously. You "took your ball and left" already. Your quotes above are completely out of context despite you thinking they support your own comments.
               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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A call for quality & collaberation...
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2012, 04:45:41 pm »


               Lulz

It's not wrong to agree with points people make, definitely not...

Regardless if anyone supports my comments, I'm a person, like you, who thinks as well, and I think this thread could have went somewhere, but it was shot down by people who are obsessed with being "technically correct"...

Once again, you are correct, though everyone is correct in their own thinking, everyone...  '<img'>

Everything is relative in nwn, building & DMing are indeed relative in many respects, though they are "technically" not the same thing...

Just saying...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _Guile, 20 mai 2012 - 03:48 .