Has this already been done?

[Legacy_Drakantus]

               I'm starting a PW project.  Part of it is just because I like building, and I don't like being limited by working on someone else's project, and another part of it is that I think my particular vision is unique enough that I could never find another PW where my ideas would fit.

Anyway, the basic concept:

World designed with PVP in mind, but not as a required activity.  I want to have a realistic game, and I believe if you can get attacked by NPC bandits you should also be able to be attacked by PC controlled "bandits".  However, through careful use of persistent factions I want to discourage random PK or griefing, and instead have most of the focus on nation vs nation battles.  You can certainly try to play the evil ganker style, but as you attack players in various nations and ****** off those factions, you would find yourself with no safe haven to reequip yourself and handle other needs.

Tied to this is the concept of nations.  I don't see a need for very many nations to start, I just know I want at least 3 which each oppose each other, so it doesn't just become a simple team vs team server where whichever team is stronger wins- I want diplomacy and politics to matter some, it should be an option for the 2 weaker nations to temporarily call a truce to deal with the strongest nation, for example.  To make the whole concept work, I want to create capturable/controllable zones.

Capturable zones are something I haven't seen yet in a PW, but I certainly haven't tried them all so this could already exist in some form.  The concept is a zone which may start out neutral, or may start out in one of the player-joinable factions.  If you are a member of the zone's faction, there would be useful resources such as merchants in the zone, and guards which would protect you. If you are a member of one of the other factions, the guards would be hostile and the merchants would refuse your business.  However, the important part is that there would be a trigger mob in the zone, typically the highest level "guard captain", "duke", "chieftain" or "king" NPC, which upon killing enables the killers to take control of the zone.  When you take control of the zone, suddenly all the enemy faction NPCs and such are replaced with friendly units.

How would this work?  I don't have a working prototype yet, but the idea is to simply make each "contested" zone multiple times, with identical terrain layout but populated by whatever faction is in control of that given instance of it.  The trigger to change control will be setup on a usable item dropped only by the "boss" NPC of the zone, and will 1- transport every player in the zone out of it, and 2- change the area transitions outside of the zone to point to the new faction that now controls it.

There are obviously a lot of other potential things that can be done along the same lines, but that is the basic concept and the main distinguishing feature I want to implement.  Is it already done anywhere?  Is there a module or PW which uses the same sort of concept?


Additionally, I want to do something similar but different with "mob" zones.  While no player or nation will be able to control a zone of this type, player actions can effect the zone.  For example, regular respawns might be disabled in a particular kobold cavern.  When it's fully cleared out and empty of players, goblins might take over the "abandoned" caverns.  Kill all of the goblins and it may next transition into a zone full of human bandits.  In this way I can make the world feel a little more alive and active.  You might have been in a particular cave a week ago, but it might not contain the same monsters this week. To be fair to the players most of the time the alternate monsters will be of similiar level, give or take 1-2 levels, but there might be some special areas where the level can change dramatically.  Maybe a particular forest of peaceful pixies (level 4) gets cleared out, and a powerful druid (level 15) moves in to protect the area from further attacks, and brings in high level natural monsters to protect the area.

Other than that, there are some flavor changes-
-disabled multiclass characters
-(some) loss of gear on death (perhaps limited to certain items only rather than full inventory)
-baseline haste (I just feel it's too strong of an ability to limit to certain characters, rather just give it to all),
-spell "focus" objects, somewhat like spell components but not expended upon spell casting, rather they would be used to prevent mages from having an inherent advantage in that they could fight naked in a world where you lose gear upon death and risk nothing, so they will have to risk losing focus objects if they want to cast their most powerful spells.
-reduced level cap (less than 40, not sure exactly what level but I want to have a game where you can step in and play for 4-5 hours and be at least somewhat useful, and I don't want it to take more than 24 hours of game play to reach maximum level)
-ease of experience gain, however some xp loss on death (along with gear loss on death, need a way to discourage players from just fighting with trash gear)
...but those changes are less important that the main concept.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               The concept of a server based on national/faction conflict has been done, by a few popular Social Servers. Those servers, however, have a focus on the BDSM aspects of capture.



No servers that I'm aware of that do it without the BDSM focus like you're suggesting, which is a shame because it's a great idea.  Good luck, and let us know when it's playable!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               ArgentumRegio has many of these features, but is low/slow magic and level, but offers many other features - if you are interested in helping us build out GOOD faction-based quests and such, and would like to see a world where (honestly) scripting gods have smiled, you should have a look at this. . . specifically ask about the Immersion Tools (ask a DM).



66.232.100.90 cep2.1 or better nwn1.69 w/ both expansions required



Be well. Game on.

GM_ODA
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Dark Defiance]

               While I am not sure if its been done before, why not just do it regardless? Every new PW that comes out only adds to the legacy of NWN 8+ years later. PW design is a very daunting task but it's also a very rewardable one. Even if it has been done before you wouldn't be "reinventing the wheel". Maybe just smoothing out the rough spots or even putting jets on it. :-)



Good luck and happy building!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Darkfire_Avlis]

               

Dark Defiance wrote...

While I am not sure if its been done before, why not just do it regardless? Every new PW that comes out only adds to the legacy of NWN 8+ years later. PW design is a very daunting task but it's also a very rewardable one. Even if it has been done before you wouldn't be "reinventing the wheel". Maybe just smoothing out the rough spots or even putting jets on it. :-)

Good luck and happy building!

Yarr! Good advice
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Puddle]

               Check out Storm Nexus for much of the "nations" faction and capture of territory.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Sulhee]

               Your design is a lot like my own, the big difference being that yours is a lot more work due to the level of scripting/automation you're looking for.  I'd depend much more on a quality player base, an active build team to update the module in response to major game events, and DM interaction.  I have a somewhat fleshed out 3-nation world design, similar in that I'd be depending very much on players to create their own fiction and to form conflicting or allied factions.  I'd also place much more trust in players ability to respect others (there might be an approval process needed, or perhaps many trusted senior players with the ability to kick/ban).  I'm not a believer in policing a server via script because I just don't think it's feasible or user-friendly.  Anyway, the DM to player ratio should be such that you can deal with problem players reasonably fast IMO.

Probably my most radical views are based around level restrictions, I'd lock in players from 9-12 or some such range, and that'd be about it.  (This solves a ridiculously long list of problems that I could write essays on.)  I'd even consider entirely static levels with modest equipment differences.  Limiting PC level range is the only way to make such a hardcore RP + player vs. player system work reasonably well.  Due to that rule I'd never disable multi-classing since it'd be essential for creating PC design variety.  I've never been a big fan of XP death loss (item or gold, perhaps), again counting on player quality and hardcore roleplay ability to keep unrealistic or abusive levels of combat under control. 

But other than this stuff your idea of maxing out in level after only 24 hours is remarkably similar to my own ideal design.  No promises and I'm not sure what my time allowance is going to be in the near future, but perhaps we should discuss the concept a little.  (And, I wonder if my old module still functions? heh)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Drakantus]

               I cut back some of what you wrote just so I can focus on responding a few important key points.

Sulhee wrote...

Your design is a lot like my own, the big difference being that yours is a lot more work due to the level of scripting/automation you're looking for.  I'd depend much more on a quality player base, an active build team to update the module in response to major game events, and DM interaction. 

Ultimately I am making a PW I personally would want to play on.  And IMO it's not as much fun do do something and then have to switch over to module building to make the change actually go into effect, I'd rather put in some extra work up front and have a game that runs itself, if it is viable.

 Limiting PC level range is the only way to make such a hardcore RP + player vs. player system work reasonably well.  Due to that rule I'd never disable multi-classing since it'd be essential for creating PC design variety.  I've never been a big fan of XP death loss (item or gold, perhaps), again counting on player quality and hardcore roleplay ability to keep unrealistic or abusive levels of combat under control. 

Easy come, easy go is the philosophy behind item/xp loss upon death.  In a normal PW with nothing lost or dropped upon death except perhaps gold, rewards are either given out very sparingly or there is massive inflation as you level up and constantly get new magic items better than your old.  And of course once you get the good items from area A you move on to area B and than area C... treadmill all the way.  I am not a fan of that playstyle, it's too much like world of warcraft.  Instead I want to make a game where items might not be so incredibly hard to find, but when you do fight to aquire them you are actually risking something.  I am sure this is a minority view, and perhaps would greatly limit the playerbase of my server if I ever get it running, but it's not just born out of mind randomly, this is exactly how the gameplay works on an old MUD that I still play occasionally, and their 30-50 players online seems to indicate that there is at least some niche of players who enjoy games with a little more risk and reward built in.  As well, the XP loss is an important aspect to balance the risk of attempting to pkill naked (as a mage, you might not need gear to kill anyone).

However, due to game mechanics and things that can't be change or easily fixed through scripting, I have mostly decided a limited form of item drop would be included, and there would be certain obtainable items that woudn't be dropped.  Mostly randomly found magic items would be subject to dropping, while some hard to obtain quest rewards and most non-magic gear would not drop.

As far as limiting level range, I am basically doing that but a lesser extent.  I like the idea of starting at level 1 for aesthetic reasons as well as character investment, even if it only takes 5 minutes to level from 1 to say... 5  solo, at least that is 5 minutes invested into the character, which helps discourage griefing and abuse.  From 5 on to the max of whatever I decide levels will still come fairly fast but all in all it may take up to 24 hours to reach max.  But I am using other measures to balance things out as well (baseline haste for example).

But other than this stuff your idea of maxing out in level after only 24 hours is remarkably similar to my own ideal design.

 The more I think about it the more "24 hours" is sounding too long.  Ever play DOTA (A warcraft 3 mod)?  I want this server to have sort of a feel like that, where you can go in as level one and at the end of the day be max or close to max level, with a difference of persistance and multiple areas.  Obviously it will be nothing like DOTA in the end, but I am just going for that general feel... where you level up in constant danger of attacks and try to stay close to friendly guards and such.  Maybe time to max level should be as low as 5-6 hours.  Or possibly even less.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Drakantus, 13 septembre 2010 - 10:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sulhee]

               I understand where you're coming from with the avoidance of having to do module updates.  Certainly player caused updates to the module itself would be a rare thing, depending on how large a change we're talking.  But I hope that a very active build team that builds based on player-created in-game events would be a nice selling point for the server design.  And don't forget that some people like to spend time in the toolset, so it's not so bad.

Consider this-- if you set out to make a complex module which automates essentially a dynamic world environment, it's going to take you some time (no idea what your skill set is but this applies even if you have a lot of experience).  If you keep it simple to start off with, working towards your highly-automated ideal (which actually I'd prefer as well given the choice) can happen over time.  In other words based on past experience with software (and NWN) projects, you're far more likely to finish if you set easy "baseline version" goals, and enhance the heck out of things from there.  Otherwise, you may never finish!  

Just take that as some friendly advice: light on the automation and dynamic environment scripting, heavy on the detail and world design, then focus on the scripting after you have a player base.  I do like what you're proposing and I'd very likely be interested in such a server.

I could probably live with the type of xp gain/loss you're speaking of (hard to say without concrete numbers and rules).  The thing I'd point out regarding your proposed form of fast level gain is that it's going to make it tempting for everyone but the most hardcore RPers (<1%) to bias their early in-game activities to "build up" new PCs and get the whole thing over with.  (Also, you know how some pause to level up in the middle of something, while everyone else has to wait? Reducing those events may help immersion slightly.)

This is why I always suggest a smaller number of levels which take a slightly longer time to gain.  If you're going to gain 5, 10, or 15 levels via 5-6 hours of gameplay, it's a strong temptation to do that so you can explore the entire module.  If you're talking 2, 3 or 4 levels after 5-6 hours of gameplay--the payoff and temptation should be greatly reduced since even with no "experience" you're still able to fully participate in the game.  I know you're big on the 1st level start thing but everybody has played the 1-5 level range (maybe higher) to death.  A server that starts you at 7-9 would be very refreshing.

Last thing- I've never feared the 'naked mage' thing, certainly on my server, a naked, PKing, poor or non-RPing grief mage would get banned pretty quickly.  I say this mainly because it'll take time for you to implement an equipment based magic system, thus making your project more aggressive and harder to complete.  I'm just not convinced that the value added in doing this (effectively scripting police work) is worth the investment at the early stages of a server's life.  Perhaps at a later stage, or once it's observed as a problem.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Sulhee, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sulhee]

               What I meant by "scripting police work" is that you should try to minimize time spent making sure players don't abuse the system as much as possible, because (accepting that the player base is a mature one) at the end of the day such work doesn't add any value or immersion for those of us who *do* try to obey the rules.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Sulhee, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:21 .