Author Topic: New Ideas to Balance NWN Classes - Have you? (Persistent World)  (Read 1741 times)

Legacy_The Mad Poet

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New Ideas to Balance NWN Classes - Have you? (Persistent World)
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2014, 02:47:19 am »


               


A Fireball still has a few advantages. For one, a Fireball is an AoE, so your number of 60 tops is per target. Taking the average of 35 damage per target, suppose there's a cluster of 8 goblins, the Fireball would have matched the damage of a Haste spell. Another advantage is that the fireball's damage is all done in a single burst, which means it's faster and cleaner when it works - less risk of taking hits and incurring damage.




 


True true. And haste won't ever be as useful as lightning bolt a 5 foot wide hallway full of monsters. Though from my experience most DM's don't like to run a fight against 9-10 monsters at a time. And the less creatures that are on the field... the less useful AoE spells like fireball become. A hasted party can dump all the damage on one target, or split it up among targets that aren't in cones, spheres, or lines. To me... having the party go off and smash stuff while having my wizard sit in the back while they have fun is just fine. Let them get splashed with blood, I'll just be back here bending the laws of physics in our favor. Thank you.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grymlorde

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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2014, 04:43:49 pm »


               


So to clarify this: the classes in DnD/NWN has a role. In this sense they are all balanced already provided your module has a meaning and support for all roles. If it doesn't, then changing the class, its feats or its spells rarely help as it usually shift the role of that class somewhere else.




 


This. It takes a bit more work to design scenarios that are more than 'hack-n-slash' but it is much, much more rewarding for players and DMs alike--both in NWN and in PnP.


 


Some random ideas:


  • Negotiate/Threaten/Bribe intelligent monsters to get information and/or loot out of them. Give the characters reasons to invest in Persuade, Intimidate, and Appraise (I use the Appraise skill for handling bribery).

  • Speak with Animals (Druids, Monks, & Rangers). Animals can reveal hints or outright secrets, e.g. a secret entrance to the dungeon

  • Tracking monsters to their lair

  • Unusual stonework for Dwarves to notice

  • Merchants that give discounts for a specific race, class, alignment, and/or worshiper.

  • Magical doors/chests that cannot be broken or opened with a knock spell and with a high Trap & Lock DCs.

  • Tunnels/Trapdoors/Secret doors that can only be used by Small creatures and Dwarves.

  • Magic items that can only be used by a specific class, race, and/or alignment [plus gender if using CEP]

  • Different dialog options/NPC reactions based on gender, race, class, alignment, deity, etc.

  • Scrolls can't be used during a rainstorm

  • Require wizards to carry around a heavy grimoire (spellbook) which can get stolen, damaged, etc.

  • Require clerics & druids to carry around a heavy prayerbook which can get stolen, damaged, etc.

  • High level PCs should have their reputation proceed them. Paladins are welcomed and celebrated. Assassins, and Evil characters are despised. Rogues and Chaotics are distrusted. And so on.

  • Rust Monsters!

There's a wealth of ideas to be found in old Dragon magazines and the Dragon Magazine Archive. And there are several Old School forums such as www.dragonsfoot.org which have ideas as well.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_FunkySwerve

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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2014, 05:08:21 pm »


               

I second a lot of Shadoow's suggestions in this thread - generally the sorts of things we've done on HG, as well.


 


Rebalancing classes is certainly possible, though it's very complex and time consuming, as you're aiming at a constantly shifting target. Nearly everything you do will effect class balance.


 


We have an entire subforum dedicated to our rebalancing edits. In that forum is this thread, which details edits to the various base and prestige class abilities:


 


Class Edits


 


Bear in mind, that's just one vector for balancing. A lot of what we do involves environmental factors of the kind Shadoow was talking about - variety in mob races, secret rooms, variety in mob defenses (crit immunity vs non, conceal vs none, sr vs none, etc), edits to spells (greatly effect wiz vs. sorc balancing), and much, much more.


 


Funky


 



               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2014, 09:07:33 am »


               

Personally, I'm with the players usually on editing of base classes, and that opinion is generally spoken as, "If you edit the core rules, it causes changes that were not intended to be changed."  Like for example, nerfing spells, removing abilities or feats of a class, etc.  Most builders, mistakenly in my opinion, want to take away things, rather than add to the benefit of playing a class to help balance things, and though this is the best policy, it's not always the best choice.


 


As is the case for PVP modules, where balance is critical to ensure fair pvp combat game play, which would indeed require that certain spells to be nerfed or changed, like Time Stop, Greater Sanctuary, etc, to prevent overly powerful casting combos.  (Like timestop, bigby's, then IMGS your opponent to death, or Greater Sanctuary followed by some powerful spell casting to give the cleric a major advantage over their opponent.)  Likewise the nerfing of Devastating Criticals or handing out immunities to critical hits & knock down, prevents casters from being completely owned in one round or even just one hit.  Nerfing has it's place on some type of modules, generally speaking though most players would probably detest it, and personally I refuse play on servers that nerf everything.  (Rest especially)


 


I don't think the core game is really balanced towards PVP at all to be perfectly honest, though some people dig PVP, it's far more enjoyable when balance is more focused on power, rather than nerfing the heck out of everything, meaning players have access to more powerful items rather than weak items.  Then there is the other factor that makes a huge difference, properties on items, which in itself is quite a balancing act as well, for if you give out powerful properties, it can come back to bite you really hard.  (Players get use to their powerful items and detest it when they start losing power.)


 


Even in a base +5 gear system, some classes clearly have an advantage over others, it's really tough to make a Character that is well balanced for PVP or any module to be realistic, balance isn't really obtainable unless there was only one class, everything was "preset", and magic was very nominal if allowed at all.  Some people may think -2 to an ability score doesn't mean much, but on the contrary, it restricts what a race can play, or greatly diminishes the power of that class should the player be of said race.  (Example a Dwarf Bard, because it receives -2 Charisma, wouldn't be able to start with 18 Charisma, like other races can.)


 


I always thought TSR did a wonderful job on balancing game play, provided you learn to respect those +2 / -2 adjustments, the benefits of feats, and learn to increase the desirability of a class by adding more benefits to the class, rather than nerfing another class to make it more on par with other classes.  It's when put subraces and legendary levels (or other similar systems that allow a PC to level beyond level 40) in a module, that balance becomes extremely difficult to juggle, unless you are great a juggling power, and that would require much experience & adjusting frequently indeed.


 


If I was to make a solid recommendation, it would be to adjust classes by giving them better benefits, thereby effective increasing the overall "desirability" to play on your module / server, rather than nerfing classes, spells, etc, and then adjust accordingly & revise adjustments where needed.  (Players probably won't complain as much if you take something away you recently gave them, but if you start tampering with core rules, that's where things can get a bit touchy & sensitive.)


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2014, 09:39:47 am »


               


If I was to make a solid recommendation, it would be to adjust classes by giving them better benefits, thereby effective increasing the overall "desirability" to play on your module / server, rather than nerfing classes, spells, etc, and then adjust accordingly & revise adjustments where needed.




 


Allow me propose an alternative perspective.


 


Say I have a boss meant to be fought by a party of adventurers with 2-3 tough minions to help him and I am using the default rules.  Which is likely the case?


 


A. The boss and his minions are immune to Harm


B. The boss and his minions are vulnerable to Harm


 


The answer, of course, is A.  Being able to effectively automatically bring each mob to 1d4 HP with no save is insanely overpowered and you'd make them immune to Negative Energy damage, to Harm specifically, or figure out some way to not make Harm an effective auto-win (hey, I just did 2000+ damage to that Ancient Red Dragon with one spell).  You could argue that in theory you could throw in some weaker "trash" mobs which are meant to be Harmed/Death Magiced/etc but you get the idea.


 


However, what if you change Harm to something more reasonable?  Suddenly you don't have to make anything meant to be reasonably tough immune to Harm.  Clerics/Druids can actually use the spell as a powerful single target nuke.  By nerfing the spell you've made it actually usable because you don't have to make things completely immune to it.


 


Otherwise you have to figure out how to design in SPITE of certain spells.  Which seems to be an odd position to start from.



               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2014, 11:15:34 am »


               

@ MagicalMaster  yes there are many work arounds to delimit the uberness of some things...


 


However, I'd like to point out that my post was mostly about "adding value to" > "taking away from" the Game play / core system.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2014, 07:13:25 pm »


               


However, I'd like to point out that my post was mostly about "adding value to" > "taking away from" the Game play / core system.




 


So was mine?


 


My point was that by nerfing Harm you're actually adding value because you don't have to make anything halfway important immune to Harm.  It makes the spell more usable.


 


In general, sometimes hammering down a few nails opens up a options which were either previously overshadowed or rendered useless.



               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2014, 10:47:43 pm »


               


So was mine?


 


My point was that by nerfing Harm....  (A nerf is a nerf dude)


 


... you're actually adding value...    (No it's not)


 


...because you don't have to make anything halfway important immune to Harm.  (How about give them damage immunity to negative, if you aren't lazy as this suggestion suggest?)




 


Do you even listen to yourself, seriously?  (No slight against you sir, though your words are evidence enough that you aren't.)


 


I think what many builders get wrong is, nobody wants to play on your nerfed version of NWN (or D&D for that matter, which is why players despise 3.5 edition so bad), where you believe everything should be nerfed to the nines, just like those lame ducks at WOTC's R&D Department have done to multiple games now....  (I've seen it first hand how they killed the love of games doing this, player bases just dwindled away to nothing.)


 


Don't listen to me, don't take my advice if you don't want to, it matters not to me, but if you want quality input, I'd be more than happy to provide it....


 


When you take away the power from the players, the players begin to feel like you don't want them to have fun, and this most definitely applies to players who are "use to" playing with said power.  We could debate that a sword is too powerful, having the power to reduce something's life to 1 or less as well, but then I suppose most arrogant people wouldn't see my point there either.


 


What is too powerful?  Nothing!  Everything within the system was designed to be used, a gun on a First Person Shooter (FPS) game can kill in one hit, much like On-Hit slay or spells that the target fails the save on, only spells never miss!  Magic in the world of D&D in undoubtedly extremely powerful, but rather than taking away that power, why not give other non-caster power as well to balance the two?  (Hence devastating critical hits & knock down, viola!)


 


Alas, I digress power is fun, who doesn't love it other than stingy old hags/hermits who want all the power for themselves so they can be supreme god of an empty mod...  (I hope that helps you see, that power is good, not bad.)



               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2014, 11:17:09 pm »


               

Guile, you are missing the point. MM's point is not about NERFing, but considering the relative powers of all abilities next to one another so that all options are interesting depending on the situation rather than one option being clearly better regardless of situation.


 


That is a totally different conversation than you are having here. You seem to be talking past MM in this regard since the only thing that you seem to be saying is that more should be added to other abilities in order to balance the scales. It sounds good in theory, but not sure how it plays out in practice.


 


My view is that you usually need to do a bit of both as you strive to make all options interesting. You give a little here, take a little there. Make up some new stuff somewhere else to round it out.


 


In other words you can't simply nuke the problem of game balance by juicing up underpowered options. Its a good idea to juice up some things. And its definitely a good idea to add more to the game. I grant you that. But in some cases you might want to scale back too, depending on your project. In other words, this is not a choose one path or the other kind of thing. You need all options at your disposal in order to work towards a vision.


 


I think that is what MM did with their module. Its a unique offerring to NWN and one that you might even enjoy given your proclivities. But I dunno, up to you.


 


Have fun.



               
               

               
            

Legacy__Guile

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« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2014, 06:11:14 am »


               

@ Henesua


 


As long as you don't take the "fun" out of the game by handing people "flowers" & "cantrips" to fight level 60 demons with, hey, do what you like....


 


Though anyone can build whatever they like, I believe your players will ultimately be the judge of what they like and don't, naturally...


 


I think some builders may be unaware of the fact that we build & DM to make the game fun for all, and should avoid designing a world where we get to lock players in a rat cage and watch them like an emperor of a gladiator stadium...   (I detest these types of worlds, give me freedom & power, or goodbye!)


 


Recently I logged into this server that hands out a bunch of "Old" items, as starting items, I got to the part where it tells me I just cannot "play" a cleric, but rather the world is all screwed up now, and I can only play certain domains if I am of a certain alignment, requiring me to read for a long time, write a bunch of BS down, to which I just said, screw this, and left..


 


I guess ultimately I'm trying to drive to the point that, people (players & DMs) see that nerfs are bad, real bad, and we shouldn't accept them, in general...


 


If I wanted to swing flowers at trees, I'd go in my back yard and kick on my trees, till then, my final advice is, learn to build a better game!!



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2014, 07:30:49 pm »


               


@ Henesua


 


As long as you don't take the "fun" out of the game by handing people "flowers" & "cantrips" to fight level 60 demons with, hey, do what you like....


 


Though anyone can build whatever they like, I believe your players will ultimately be the judge of what they like and don't, naturally...


 


I think some builders may be unaware of the fact that we build & DM to make the game fun for all, and should avoid designing a world where we get to lock players in a rat cage and watch them like an emperor of a gladiator stadium...   (I detest these types of worlds, give me freedom & power, or goodbye!)


 


Recently I logged into this server that hands out a bunch of "Old" items, as starting items, I got to the part where it tells me I just cannot "play" a cleric, but rather the world is all screwed up now, and I can only play certain domains if I am of a certain alignment, requiring me to read for a long time, write a bunch of BS down, to which I just said, screw this, and left..


 


I guess ultimately I'm trying to drive to the point that, people (players & DMs) see that nerfs are bad, real bad, and we shouldn't accept them, in general...


 


If I wanted to swing flowers at trees, I'd go in my back yard and kick on my trees, till then, my final advice is, learn to build a better game!!




You are right. There are peoples who consider any kind of nerfs to be utterly stupid and refuse to play on such moduleserver. There are also peoples who consider new features the same way.


 


Keep in mind that adding stuff to balance is rather action-style preffered option. Your suggestion isn't much preffered by a less action modules or modules that focus on early levels.


 


As I said adding a new feats/spells/etc. is definitely an option, but its not the only right one. Actually, this thread is not about what is right or what is wrong. We can never agree on that. But I second what MM said, often nerf actually adds a possibilities, because you dont have to make every monster immune to that. Nerfs are indeed very negatively received, but when they are justified and reasonable they actually enhances the game.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2014, 09:51:40 pm »


               


I think what many builders get wrong is, nobody wants to play on your nerfed version of NWN (or D&D for that matter, which is why players despise 3.5 edition so bad), where you believe everything should be nerfed to the nines, just like those lame ducks at WOTC's R&D Department have done to multiple games now....  (I've seen it first hand how they killed the love of games doing this, player bases just dwindled away to nothing.)




 


I'll let you in on something that you might find interesting.  These are two things that I made for a PW I was building for a few years back and people requested I upload them for public use.


 


Epic Vrock


 


Hellball/Greater Ruin


 



 (How about give them damage immunity to negative, if you aren't lazy as this suggestion suggest?)


 


This is again missing my point.  I specifically said I could easily make them immune to Harm specifically or to Negative Energy in general.  But this means Harm is then completely useless against anything meant to be tough precisely because the builder has to make it immune.


 


Would you rather have a Harm that can do 10,000+ damage but just about everything is immune to it or a Harm that does 150, 200, 250, or whatever damage but nothing is immune to it?


 



If I wanted to swing flowers at trees, I'd go in my back yard and kick on my trees, till then, my final advice is, learn to build a better game!!



 


That's what we're trying to do '<img'>


 


We don't to have to make stuff immune to Harm because it's too powerful.  We WANT Clerics to be able to Harm anything and for Harm to be useful -- but we also can't have situations where Harm does 10,000 damage to a boss with a single cast.  Either the boss has to be immune or Harm has to be changed -- and I'd rather players have the OPTION of using Harm rather than saying "Hey, anything tough is immune to Harm.  Sucks to be you."


 




Guile, you are missing the point. MM's point is not about NERFing, but considering the relative powers of all abilities next to one another so that all options are interesting depending on the situation rather than one option being clearly better regardless of situation.




 


Precisely.


 



I think that is what MM did with their module. Its a unique offerring to NWN and one that you might even enjoy given your proclivities. But I dunno, up to you.


 


Not so much, actually -- I believe the only spells I actually modified are the damage reflect shields.  For the other stuff I simply made monsters immune to them and in retrospect I could have left many of the weaker enemies vulnerable to Harm (I think I just made everything immune).  But since all of the tough enemies are immune I didn't want players to get in the habit of thinking Harm would work and walk into a boss with with useless spell slots.


 


Now, I was working on a project a few years back (where those scripts earlier came from) where I did modify a ton of spells.  One of the things I did was make Harm 30 damage + 3 per level as I recall (so 150 damage no save for a level 6 spell as a level 40 Cleric).  I also buffed a ton of higher level spells and Epic Spells so players were overall more powerful and Harm was still the best single target nuke in the game given its spell level (Meteor Swarm could do 165 damage per enemy but that's also a level 9 spell, Power Word: Kill could do 330 damage but that's also level 9 and required the enemy to be below 25% HP).


 


Maybe I'll release some of the work I did there at some point as a module for people to fiddle around with if they want -- mostly a multiplayer mod, though, with six different dungeons for level 40s (two for 3 players, two for 5 players, and two for 7 players).  Also had three single player dungeons (one for level 4, one for 20, and one for 40) but it was mainly a testing ground for multiplayer stuff.  Technically also had some hidden boss fights not normally accessible where I was testing some concepts -- could probably enable those, I suppose, but those are both 7 person fights again.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2014, 09:52:00 pm »


               


But I second what MM said, often nerf actually adds a possibilities, because you dont have to make every monster immune to that. Nerfs are indeed very negatively received, but when they are justified and reasonable they actually enhances the game.




 


Exactly.  We're trying to avoid having to take options away by making stuff immune.  We want players to have lots of options.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiteTiger

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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2014, 02:39:39 am »


               
 




Exactly.  We're trying to avoid having to take options away by making stuff immune.  We want players to have lots of options.



 



 


What I'm trying to do.