Author Topic: Trolls (not forum trolls)  (Read 971 times)

Legacy_Tchos

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Trolls (not forum trolls)
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2015, 12:54:38 am »


               

It is not a typo.  Words that are spelled with l'accent circonflexe over a vowel preceding a consonant in modern French, such as "maître" or "hôpital", had an "s" after the vowel and preceding the consonant in Old French, as in "maistre" and "hospital".  That was the spelling in the 1697 edition.  But it is the same tale you're talking about.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2015, 01:42:29 am »


               

So that's why google translate (I have it on speed dial in opera) wouldn't work until I removed the 's'.


 


TR



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grymlorde

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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2015, 10:09:03 pm »


               


Interesting that the name Greenteeth may share an etymology with Grendel.  It seems plausible.


 


While I don't dispute that Perrault may have been the first person to have used "ogre" in writing, the ogre he describes in the cited work (Histoires ou Contes du temps passé, 1697, specifically in Le Maistre Chat), is an intelligent shapeshifter who owns lands and presides over them in a fine human-style castle, and has a civil, if slightly brusque, conversation with the protagonist.  Are you saying that's a troll?




 


AWK! Of course the ogre in Puss 'n Boots is not a troll! How could I have forgotten that the French ogre first appeared in that tale?!? and thank you Tchos for providing the detail! This is why I love this board!


 


OK, now I don't know when exactly ogres in English became Trolls.


 


Now as regards Jenny Greenteeth, as far as I know (and I'm only an amateur so I could certainly be wrong), it's not that she shares an etymology with Grendel per se but that she is part of a tradition of freshwater amphibious humanoids who drag people underwater for food and fun. My research turned up several stories in Mid- and Northern England which while remarkably similar called these creatures Gendylow, Grundylow, Grindylow, Ginny Greenteeth, Jenny Greenteeth, and other variations.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2015, 10:29:37 pm »


               

Anybody ever seen that movie where the underwater vampires puke out their lungs to regenerate?


               
               

               
            

Legacy_LoA_Tristan

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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2015, 11:00:20 pm »


               

In D&D you would ideally want to divide trolls into subraces to cover the various myths and perceptions people have in their minds.  D&D is supposed to cover everything.


 


The default model looks like an opportunist.  Classic DnD template with hooked nose, wiry frame and an afro.  Perhaps Marsh / Forest Troll.


 


LOTR trolls would be an extremely massive subterranean type (Cave Troll) and an overground tribalist (Giant Troll? War Troll?).  I don't favor LOTR depictions automatically, but Tolkein's trolls are hard to beat- a bigass linebacker-type that roars at everything and raises hell.  They probably do not regenerate, not from being hacked to pieces at least.


 


Another depiction would be a huge, stealthy creature— probably has a gorilla-ish shape— based on Grendel (Grendelowe Troll?).


 


Trøll, or just Troll, would be the bulbous, human-faced creatures from norse mythology, like that picture.  Possibly shamans, with trickery, animal, death or evil domains?  There could be an outsider variant.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tchos

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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2015, 11:01:02 pm »


               


AWK! Of course the ogre in Puss 'n Boots is not a troll! How could I have forgotten that the French ogre first appeared in that tale?!?


OK, now I don't know when exactly ogres in English became Trolls.


 


Now as regards Jenny Greenteeth, as far as I know (and I'm only an amateur so I could certainly be wrong), it's not that she shares an etymology with Grendel per se but that she is part of a tradition of freshwater amphibious humanoids who drag people underwater for food and fun.




 


I've done some more research since last post, since this was an interesting subject, and I saw that there was an earlier French mention of ogres than Perrault's: in Chrétien de Troyes' Perceval, le Conte du Graal (written between 1135 and 1190).  However, these ogres are never described in any way aside from there being a land where they supposedly lived.  From that I could infer either that ogres were monsters that were well known enough at that time and place to have needed no explanation, or else it was simply the name of a particular group of people, with no relation to the monsters.

 

However, in the book Romania by Paul Meyer et al., pp. 301-305, the author examines this passage from Perceval in multiple translations and manuscript variants, with an eye not only for determining its meaning, but also its authenticity.  Meyer rebuts Heinzel's claim (in Ueber die franzosischen Gralromane) that the lines mentioning ogres are an interpolation, due to existing in multiple other manuscripts, and for other reasons.  There is some possibility that the word simply meant "pagan", as it did in Middle Ages Dutch, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't giving an already-existing monstrous appellation to a hated people.

 

The book also mentions that le Dictionnaire Darmesteter-Hatzfeld-Thomas claims that the earliest use of the word "ogre" is from 1527, but that the use in Perceval would predate that.  Unfortunately, it's just not clear what the word actually meant at the time, but by Perrault's time, it had definitely acquired the meaning of a monstrous humanoid that could nevertheless pass for a human, which could hold positions of power, and had a taste for human flesh.

 

As for Jenny Greenteeth, I only noticed the similarity of the structure of the names: Green = Gren, teeth = del.  The latter part is a bit of a stretch, but not too much with corruption and dialect variants, especially with the consonant d/t.  Of course, there are many other folkloric creatures that match her description which have completely different names, like nyk / nökken / nykkjen, and all of the shapeshifting water-horse-men like the kelpie or each-uisge.  Fascinating subject.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nevercallmebyname

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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 03:23:55 am »


               

"traditional" trolls are hairy humanoids of marginally above average stature with cow tails and large noses. Or at least from my research that is the case.


A model of that would certainly be nice.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2015, 12:42:32 pm »


               


"traditional" trolls are hairy humanoids of marginally above average stature with cow tails and large noses. Or at least from my research that is the case.


A model of that would certainly be nice.




That's exactly what I've been asking for.