Spell Penetration Feat

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

A question for those of you who play casters.

 

On a PW where the character level is capped at 20, would the feat "Spell Penetration" be advisable for a pure Cleric? Or a Cleric 18/Fighter 2?

 

Gregor

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndrueD]

               

Don't think it matter what caster class.... wiz, sorc, bard, drud, clc... any same deal.

 

Spell Pen like giving toon 2 more class lvls vs. SR  as soon as taken.  If you have PMs there, they like all Spell Pen feats or won't cut SR hardly at all.  Am thinking, the lower cap the more it worth.  But much depend on the creature skin whether those 2 points make much difference if they very high SR anyway only hi caster will cut the SR & prolly need breach beside that.  Poor divine caster won't get breaches unless with arcane or UMD multi.

 

Where Spell Pen matter least is epic & legend build then pure caster really don't need the pen feats.

 

Course, if PvP vs. hiSR-monk they screwed w/ or w/o spell pen.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I mean, it just adds two caster levels to the SR check. So it does nothing unless you're casting an offensive spell on enemies, which you're going to be doing less as a Cleric in general...but you still may want to be chucking around Firestorms/Implosions/Harms/etc. Then the question becomes "Will the things I want to cast spells at have 20+ Spell Resistance?" If so, it may be worth it to avoid a few resisted spells...but ultimately if the enemy has 40 SR or something then going from 100% resisted to 90% resisted won't really help, presumably you're not casting at that enemy either way. On top of that for group content you may have Wizards/Sorcerers throwing out Mord's which lowers enemy SR by 10 and may make your Spell Penetration feat moot against the toughest enemies.

In short...it entirely depends on your world and without knowing more about the world it's hard for us to say.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

In addition to agreeing with the earlier comments, a little more context may be useful for players thinking about this. To that end, I'll note that the SR available to non-monk creatures (via skin property) is limited to 32 in the standard palette. (CEP increases this very substantially, but read on.) That means that many standard creatures with SR (e.g. many dragons, demons, etc.) won't have SR exceeding 32. Moreover, many modules (even those with CEP or other 2DA-modifying HAKs) base many encounters on standard creatures and custom creatures with skin properties that use those of the standard creatures as a starting point. That is, even when a module has lots of custom creatures, the focus of any customization is often on changing AC versus AB and damage versus DR, resistances, and so on. Often, unless a lot of thought is put into preparing the encounters for offensive casters, SRs may stay the same as those of the standard creatures. And, even with SR 32 as the limit in the standard palette, only a couple creatures have SR 32.

 

Because of this, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration can bring (for instance) a standard ancient red dragon down from resisting the spells of your level 20 caster from 35% of the time to 15% of the time. That's pretty substantial, though at a pretty high cost in feats, for a cleric.

 

Basically, as MM noted, the situations in which the cleric is likely to find himself are the biggest factor. I just mention the above to give some feel for how often it might come into play for modules whose creature and item SRs aren't highly customized.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Because of this, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration can bring (for instance) a standard ancient red dragon down from resisting the spells of your level 20 caster from 35% of the time to 15% of the time. That's pretty substantial, though at a pretty high cost in feats, for a cleric.

To be clear, this is referring to a level 20 Cleric versus an Ancient Red Dragon with 28 Spell Resistance.

That said, if anyone has a Greater Spell Breach scroll (or can cast the spell) then that reduces SR by 6, meaning 5% chance to be resisted...and if the dragon gets hit with Mord's it'll have 18 SR, so 0% resisted. So availability of magic scrolls/wands/etc and amount of party play matters. Some modules may also give Spell Penetration as a feat on items too -- which means you're having to pay 2 feats for 2 more caster levels of penetration. Another concern is that some enemies you'd want to use a spell like Harm on the most (the really dangerous ones) are also the ones most likely to be immune to Harm even if you get past their SR.

If it sounds like I'm stacking the deck against Greater Spell Penetration...yeah, I sort of am due to the whole PW thing. But I can also think of situations where a "dedicated" offensive casting Cleric would want GSP due to lack of a mage or GSB scrolls.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

Agreed that readily available breaches can substitute for penetration. As you note earlier, everything about such a decision is situational or environment-based. There are PWs where getting breach scrolls is either difficult or tedious. And, of course, a cleric or cleric/fighter can't use those scrolls anyway (and neither can non-bard UMDers use them reliably, under standard hardcore rules). If there are no mages to cast (or, when consumables are plentiful, read) breaches, then penetration tends to be helpful. And, of course, in situations where the targets are a more immediate threat (in terms of DPS, swarming, etc.), being able to get off an offensive spell or two instead of casting or reading a breach can mean the difference between life and death. And, with any breach that doesn't bring the SR down to CL+1 or lower, the penetration feats are helping. So, against a high-SR opponent, there are situations where both a breach and SP/GSP are going to be useful. Ditto for modules where low- to moderate-SR opponents are numerous.

 

Anyway, at this point the OP probably knows as much as we can tell him without some more exact knowledge of the play environment he is in and how he plans/likes to play his cleric. As has been mentioned, if this isn't a toon relying on offensive casting (as opposed to a cleric who does more buffing and then relies on melee for damage), then penetration feats are likely not as useful as other feats (Blind Fight, etc.).

 

My experience (in the modules I play most) has been that pure casters seldom take the Spell Penetration feats. But, a level 20 cap might change that somewhat, since levels may be less likely to keep up with the SRs one often encounters.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

I had no idea it was such a complex decision. I haven't played casters much in all the years I've been playing D&D in general, and NWN specifically. Most of the spell casting my characters have had have been Ranger spells. I just recently decided to get into playing a cleric.

 

Okay, some more info. My character concept here is akin to a modern day combat medic. His main focus is to take care of the healing/bufffing needs of his party members, and to be able to add a little fire support in the process. The character is an elf cleric and took the healing and travel domains. He took Zen Archery so he can be an effective archer when he's not buffing or healing party members. However, he does occasionally cast offensive spells at enemies. On the PW where he lives, the powers that be decided to smack the Implosion spell with the nerf bat. They took away the +3 bonus to the DC to keep clerics from being able to kill everything in the immediate area at will (They favor arcane casters on that server, and don't like anything to be able to oppose them).So I wondered if taking the feat Spell Penetration would be helpful to him in regaining some advantage to the rare occasion he casts spells like Implosion and Harm.

 

His Feat selection went like this. 

1. Combat Casting

3. Dodge

6. Zen Archery

9. Point Blank Shot

12. Rapid Shot

15. Extend Spell

 

Originally, I was going to take Mobility at level 9, and Spring Attack at level 12, to help him avoid attacks of opportunity while moving around in combat healing the other party members. But at the last minute, I decided to give him a little more firepower with his bow instead. He is currently at level 17, and he has one feat left unless I decide to take the last two levels as a fighter just to gain the extra two feats. I'm not sure I want to do that, as losing the extra high level spell slots he would gain with level 19 and 20 cleric is a lot to trade off. 

 

Thoughts?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndrueD]

               

On the PW where he lives, the powers that be decided to smack the Implosion spell with the nerf bat. They took away the +3 bonus to the DC to keep clerics from being able to kill everything in the immediate area at will (They favor arcane casters on that server, and don't like anything to be able to oppose them).So I wondered if taking the feat Spell Penetration would be helpful to him in regaining some advantage to the rare occasion he casts spells like Implosion and Harm.

NWN Implosion DC not normal AD&D Implosion DC. That spell give no bonus. Am thinking some PW just fix it to be more like AD&D than how NWN makers come up with. Some think +3 is bug but doesn't matter cuz not AD&D 3.0 like many things of NWN. Make me wonder if your PW nerf Timestop or leave arcane casting uber?

Look like you go bow from race but also think maybe can use sling/shield sometime. Divine caster with shield very good AC when trying to reach party to heal. Cleric really need no WF cuz can buff AB fine on any weapon they can use. Course WF help, but not so much needed when cleric can cap AB bonus so easy with buff (GMW only melee, course). It also help when archer cleric shoot at foe archer who maybe wear archer belt so can beat that DR with bluggon dmg instead of pierce. Sling likes same feats as bow and also find with mighty so lose nothing like would xbow that need fast reload.

Only bad thing for healer holding range is all AoOs it get when walk too close to flankers before even trying casting healing. That why sling could be easy switchout.

Empower Owl Wis give healer +3AB zen, +3DC, +3will with good roll. Cleric likes empower to help party better, mainly when some are low Con or low Str.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

If your server has removed the DC bonus to Implosion and you want spells like that to be more effective, then there is a fair chance that Spell Focus: Evocation (and Greater SF, if you could have taken it) would be closer to what you want than the penetration feats. Note that, by default, Implosion is not party-friendly in full PvP areas, so it's dangerous to cast on opponents if your teammates are in melee with them.

 

The value of penetration is still largely determined by environment. If you face many opponents with significant SR, then penetration is likely to be helpful. As mentioned earlier, arcanists willing to cast breaches can make up for lack of penetration, to some degree, so your party composition is a factor.

 

Probably, others will give a critique of your toon's feats in more depth than I will, but here are a few tidbits. 1) The archery feats aren't typical for most clerics, but they are fine for a cleric who spends a lot of time sniping, particularly if your server allows Darkfire or GMW on ammo.

 

2) As sort of a periodic public service, I always like to point out that Combat Casting is almost always a poor feat for a toon, unless there is a compelling reason to have Improved Combat Casting (which happens sometimes, e.g. the server allows casting while in Expertise mode). Even then, IMO, it's marginal. For a PW with a level 20 cap, there is no ICC for PCs, so CC isn't going to be very useful. Since your toon isn't a melee cleric, it's likely you aren't even entering defensive casting mode much.

 

3) Also, Dodge is a nice feat for melee toons. There are usually better feats for non-melee casters.

 

(I know it's two late to drop CC and Dodge, but you might keep the above in mind for future caster toons.)

 

Anyway, if you are running up against lots of high-SR opponents, then Spell Penetration might be a decent feat. If you are not, then a different casting feat will likely be a better choice for level 18. Spell Focus, Empower Spell, or Maximize Spell might bolster your offensive spellcasting effectiveness (which was a stated goal) and the latter two feats also have the benefit of bolstering your ability buffs.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Thanks for the responses, folks. I appreciate all your input. The situation has been resolved.