Don't two-handed weapons handicap players by taking two slots?

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

If you're saying about unchecked IRL being unusable due to being possible to create such items, and it looks like you are, then, of course, it's true. But all this time I'm only considering IRL tweaked and restricted in several ways, like only up to level 16, aiming for balance at level 40 mainly and having such properties like immunities and resistances in check.

 

Just to make sure I have your position clear:

 

Level 16s using level 16 gear is bad.

Level 40s using level 40 gear is bad.

Something like level 20s using level 8 gear is still bad.

At exactly the point of level 40s using level 16 gear, ILR semi works except for problems like resistance, regeneration, and immunity.

 

At this point I don't get why you're even considering ILR versus just manually assigning values to properties you want to use.

 

I have already generated my own previously (including the 19-20/x2 crit range) and have already made the statement that it exactly backs my claim.

 

Yeah, well, actually linking this proof would be helpful -- notice how I'm providing the actual evidence to support my claims rather than just saying "I'm totally right, just believe me?" '>

 

 

The typical model followed is that the tough monsters are hit by a pure fighter (with maximum AB/ strength investment and scaled by gear) on a 15.  This number is not arbitrary, it reflects both the +5 step difference from one blow to the next, as well as being the maximum critical range for the 19-20/x2 weapons.  That is a pure fighter will not gain any critical advantage for having a scimitar as opposed to a longsword, unless he multi-classes to gain the additional AB benefit.  A weapon master gets +7 above the fighter and so we are looking at the dual-wielder needing a 10 to hit with a double weapon (or an 8 to hit with a two-handed weapon) for a tough monster.  This exactly matches the 10-20/x3 critical range of having two kukris.  So, further investment in weapon master is used to supplement the critical hit benefits already provided in the first 7 levels.

 

Okay, then let's look at a WM with a scythe and compare it to a WM with dual-kukris and we'll use the actual crit range values.  Here's the result (using +5 weapons and assuming +12 strength from gear, no haste).  If we assume the dual-wielder needs a 10 to hit, then that means the enemy AC is 46.  At that point on the graph the scythe is about 20% ahead of the kukris.  If you remove the +12 strength then the scythe is still about 10% ahead at 40 AC (since you lose 6 AB).

 

I have played many servers without any potions for sale or to be brewed.  One of my favorite servers started you off with having to craft weapons with damage penalties (no normal ingredients for standard crafting).

 

But because you keep on insisting on adding on a haste source, I might as well point out why this will make no difference even in a medium magic environment.  The spell scroll "flame weapon" gives 12.5 fire damage on-hit (not multiplied by criticals) which provides most of the boost needed to bring the +5 weapon from being equal in double vs. 2-hand without haste to being equal with haste.  And flame weapon costs less and can be used with a single level in cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard (with minimal UMD), or rogue/assassin (with high UMD).  More levels can dilute the weapon master AB benefit, but can provide greater benefit for a short duration (for example cleric 3 gets bless, aid, bull's strength each lasting at least 3 turns, and additionally has two more level one spells).

 

Care to name some?  I've played on over a dozen servers and dozens of campaign modules and never found that environment?  It's possible it exists, but it seems extremely rare.

 

And just for kicks, let's just add the flame weapon bonus in the kukri/scythe example -- we'll even ignore the fact it doesn't get multiplied on crits (which benefits the kukris more as a result in this simulation).  Hey, what do you know, at the +10 AB mark for DW (40 AC) the 2H becomes equal or better.  And what if we add in +12 strength versus none?  The 2H still becomes equal or better at the +7 AB mark.  And if you throw in haste it becomes equal at the +3 AB mark.

 

Even if you add 3 more AB from cleric buffs or something, that just means the 2H becomes equal or better at the +10 AB mark and +6 AB mark in the last two examples.

 

As for the +3-+5 range that was made for a specific progression you used (and then later removed haste for another comparison).  If you looked at that progression with haste you would see the two hand have a small region of going over the double weapon (where without haste it would not, though I would suggest you also add in the missing +2 for the epic weapon specialization shortcoming).

 

Every sim after you pointed out an easy way to adjust for the EWS issue has been corrected, only the original ones were flawed.  And the 2H, with or without haste, is still routinely overtaking DW.

 

But that seems to me completely unapplicable to NWN which does not follow these rules and where potions of Haste is very common loot. I would also said that haste boots/other item is pretty common item in low magic environment as well (haste boots = 11ILR, and those other unique boots with haste are 17, robe of dark moon is 9) though many servers out there are HCRP where they do not allow this - but I think that speaking generally haste is common unlike current PWs. I think better example of this environment would be NWN OC than HCRP persistant worlds.

 

Yeah, even the most hardcore anti-permahaste PWs I've played on have had Haste potions available from vendors.  And Haste doesn't even really matter, these examples still show 2H doing nigh identical damage without needing 3 extra feats and 15 dex.  If the magic level is higher with more bonuses, then you're also most likely to have Haste.

 

I mean, even with +15 weapons with 6d12 bonus damage, the 2H is still roughly equal for mobs that you need to roll a 5 or more to hit and superior when you need to roll a 10 or more to hit.

 

18 strength + 15 dex still leaves me with 6 stat points to spend on 14 constitution.  I could do that or lower the strength by 2 and take another class with AB boosts (like cleric) invest 4 points in that class ability, and 2 points in intelligence.

 

What Shadow is saying is that the 2H has to sacrifice less -- in your example he could go 18 strength and 12 dexterity and have enough spare points for 12 wisdom.  Or 10 dexterity and 10 intelligence, since you can probably get 2 dex from items or Cat's Grace.  And even as a WM you save 3 points to put elsewhere.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Yeah, well, actually linking this proof would be helpful -- notice how I'm providing the actual evidence to support my claims rather than just saying "I'm totally right, just believe me?" '>

 

 

If you read on, you would see that the tough monsters would be hit on a roll of 8 (or 10 for the double weapons).  Thus evaluate your graph from 34 AC (for the weak) to 44 AC (for the tough).

 

 

 

Okay, then let's look at a WM with a scythe and compare it to a WM with dual-kukris and we'll use the actual crit range values.  Here's the result (using +5 weapons and assuming +12 strength from gear, no haste).  If we assume the dual-wielder needs a 10 to hit, then that means the enemy AC is 46.  At that point on the graph the scythe is about 20% ahead of the kukris.  If you remove the +12 strength then the scythe is still about 10% ahead at 40 AC (since you lose 6 AB).

 

 

Why? My claim was evaluating the double-sword vs. greatsword and the double-axe versus greataxe.  Of course the weapon master will do best with a scythe against monsters not crit-immune.  My comparison was with two weapon sets without factoring haste.  It seems that you are spending more time addressing irrelevant points than addressing the original claim.  As such it is hard to keep on calling me wrong for a statement I didn't make.

 

 

 

Care to name some?  I've played on over a dozen servers and dozens of campaign modules and never found that environment?  It's possible it exists, but it seems extremely rare.

 

 

I have played over 5 servers in the past this way.  Can't remember their names, but one was filled with a lot of dinosaurs including the T-rex.

 

 

Every sim after you pointed out an easy way to adjust for the EWS issue has been corrected, only the original ones were flawed.  And the 2H, with or without haste, is still routinely overtaking DW.

 

And the overtaking is mostly past the point of consideration for tough monsters.

 

 

What Shadow is saying is that the 2H has to sacrifice less -- in your example he could go 18 strength and 12 dexterity and have enough spare points for 12 wisdom.  Or 10 dexterity and 10 intelligence, since you can probably get 2 dex from items or Cat's Grace.  And even as a WM you save 3 points to put elsewhere.

 

Still the 1 damage offset is insignificant enough that it is more than overcome when we are adding 12.5 to both.

 

 

In the end, I don't think either of you is really interested in looking at my claim.  You both seem too busy trying to display your expertise to take the time to read.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

What Shadow is saying is that the 2H has to sacrifice less -- in your example he could go 18 strength and 12 dexterity and have enough spare points for 12 wisdom.  Or 10 dexterity and 10 intelligence, since you can probably get 2 dex from items or Cat's Grace.  And even as a WM you save 3 points to put elsewhere.

especially as WM as you need 13dex and 13int

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Right,

 

So we have

 

18 str 12 con 13 dex 13 int for 2-hand vs. 18 str 8 con 15 dex 14 int for double-weapon sacrificing 80 HP and 2 fort.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

If you read on, you would see that the tough monsters would be hit on a roll of 8 (or 10 for the double weapons).  Thus evaluate your graph from 34 AC (for the weak) to 44 AC (for the tough).

 

Why 34 and 44?  The recent graphs have 30 or 36 AB for DW.

 

If we assume you meant 36 and 46 (assuming 36 AB for DW which is then 8 needed for 2H), this graph shows 2H and DW equal at 34 AC and 2H then becomes superior at higher AC.

 

Why? My claim was evaluating the double-sword vs. greatsword and the double-axe versus greataxe.  Of course the weapon master will do best with a scythe against monsters not crit-immune.  My comparison was with two weapon sets without factoring haste.  It seems that you are spending more time addressing irrelevant points than addressing the original claim.  As such it is hard to keep on calling me wrong for a statement I didn't make.

 

Because you're taking exotic weapon proficiency for the kukri you mentioned (or even double weapons)?  Why wouldn't we compare the scythe in that case?

 

And I've shown sets both with and without haste -- the only difference is the 2H takes slightly higher AC to overtake DW without haste, but it still consistently happens.

 

I have played over 5 servers in the past this way.  Can't remember their names, but one was filled with a lot of dinosaurs including the T-rex.

 

Well, if you manage to remember one I'd be interested.

 

And the overtaking is mostly past the point of consideration for tough monsters.

 

The set in the first part of this post shows it overtaking for your definition of "weak" monsters.  And if you remove the +12 strength then it still overtakes at weak monster +2 AC (8 below tough monster).

 

Switching the comparison to double sword versus greatsword with no strength bonus has 2H overtaking DW at weak monster +3 AC (7 below tough monster).

 

So I'm really not seeing how you're drawing this conclusion.

 

Still the 1 damage offset is insignificant enough that it is more than overcome when we are adding 12.5 to both.

 

The 1 damage matters far less than the 1 AB.

 

In the end, I don't think either of you is really interested in looking at my claim.  You both seem too busy trying to display your expertise to take the time to read.

 

I'm quite interested and I am reading your posts.  And I keep trying to sim new sets as a result of the stuff you mention.  But I'm still not seeing how you're getting the results you claim to have gotten.  So perhaps you could link to an analysis you've done illustrating one of your points?

 

18 str 12 con 13 dex 13 int for 2-hand vs. 18 str 8 con 15 dex 14 int for double-weapon sacrificing 80 HP and 2 fort.

 

Unless you're short on epic fighter/WM feats, you'd likely go 17/14/13/14/8/8 as 2H and 17/12/15/14/8/8 (with one left over) for DW, so you sacrifice 40 HP and 1 fort.  You'd need a reason to take a general feat instead of Great Strength VII.  Could definitely happen in some environments, though, especially if saving throws are important and you want to take Epic Fort/Reflexes/Will.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Right,

 

So we have

 

18 str 12 con 13 dex 13 int for 2-hand vs. 18 str 8 con 15 dex 14 int for double-weapon sacrificing 80 HP and 2 fort.

You dont get my pont. How can you argument that double-weapon has same/better damage than twohanded weapon when you are comparing it on two different characters? So its better but you lose 80hp 2fort ? Lol, imo if you want to compare damage you need to keep con and int same on both characters and lower strength instead.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

To be fair, you could argue that you only put those points into Constitution because every other option is worse and that the HP/fort don't wind up mattering in most cases.  There's a reason people don't salivate over Epic Toughness even though it's better than Great Consitution in terms of raw HP until level 40 and equal at that point -- just lacks the Fort save (and the ability to use it for another feat like Epic Damage Reduction).

 

If the difference between a 2H and DW was 10 wisdom vs 8 wisdom, I don't think we'd really care.  And regarding constitution the HP isn't that significant most of the time.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Why 34 and 44?  The recent graphs have 30 or 36 AB for DW.

 

If we assume you meant 36 and 46 (assuming 36 AB for DW which is then 8 needed for 2H), this graph shows 2H and DW equal at 34 AC and 2H then becomes superior at higher AC.

 

 

The why is that it is irrelevant to my claim.  You can compare scythe and kukri all you want, just don't quote me as being in opposition to your claim as I have not made a claim concerning scythe that you would refute.

 

 

Because you're taking exotic weapon proficiency for the kukri you mentioned (or even double weapons)?  Why wouldn't we compare the scythe in that case?

 

 

The double weapons have always been the issue of the comparison, with the claim that on low magic they can overtake their corresponding 2-hand counterparts.  They will never overtake the scythe, so I never discussed what was the best weapon, merely what weapons were overtaken by what.

 

 

I'm quite interested and I am reading your posts.  And I keep trying to sim new sets as a result of the stuff you mention.  But I'm still not seeing how you're getting the results you claim to have gotten.  So perhaps you could link to an analysis you've done illustrating one of your points?

 

 

Try this and this.

 

For the axe comparison try this and this.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

You dont get my pont. How can you argument that double-weapon has same/better damage than twohanded weapon when you are comparing it on two different characters? So its better but you lose 80hp 2fort ? Lol, imo if you want to compare damage you need to keep con and int same on both characters and lower strength instead.

 

If you want constitution additionally, you could always start with 17 strength.  You'll come up with the same strength modifier at the end.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

The why is that it is irrelevant to my claim.

 

Except it's not irrelevant since you're obviously introducing new variables without specifying them (and since you didn't link your sims then I can't try to figure out what I changed).  This entire time we've been discussing 36 (+12 strength) or 30 (+0 strength) AB for DW.  So if you have 34 AB then...what did you change?

 

If, for example, you dropped the BAB by 6 and added in EWF/EP then you're losing the lowest attack, which can be significant.

 

Now that you actually have linked the sims, I can tell that you were looking at +8 strength and +10 strength which is perfectly valid, but you might have changed something that drastically skewed the results.

 

You can compare scythe and kukri all you want, just don't quote me as being in opposition to your claim as I have not made a claim concerning scythe that you would refute.

 

The double weapons have always been the issue of the comparison, with the claim that on low magic they can overtake their corresponding 2-hand counterparts.  They will never overtake the scythe, so I never discussed what was the best weapon, merely what weapons were overtaken by what.

 

If you're going to talk about DW kukris (and you specifically mentioned kukris) then comparing it to the scythe seems perfectly valid.

 

And the 2H counterpart of the double weapons IS the scythe -- all exotic weapons.  We can compare the double axe to the greataxe and double sword to the greatsword if you want...but if you're picking up exotic weapon proficiency and are on a level 40 server then you're picking the scythe for 2H.

 

 

Try this and this.

 

For the axe comparison try this and this.

 

I'll refer to those as 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively.

 

On 1, we see that at 32 AC DW and 2H are virtually identical, with 2H being slightly better on average.  And 32 AC is BELOW the "weak" threshold that you defined by 2 AC.  And as of 36 AC the 2H is always equal or better.

 

On 2, same story, except the 32 AC threshold becomes 33 AC and 2H is always better or equal for 37 AC.

 

On 3, same as 1.

 

On 4, same as 2.

 

So those graphs indicate that even for the weak mobs you mention, 2H is doing just as well (without needing to sink three extra feats in for DW and without a feat for exotic (so four feats saved total) and without needing 15 dex) as DW.  And as the mob AC increases the 2H goes from potentially being marginally behind to being marginally ahead.

 

All that extra investment for a virtually identical (and slightly worse for relevant enemies) result is hardly being competitive -- and this is also always assuming the character will have EWS.