What is Art?

[Baaleos]

               I would argue that idea behind the naturally created photo-graph / triggered photograph is 'artistic' in its own right. (The branch triggering a photo)

Some artists do things like this - where they setup naturally occurring phenomena and then record them in time-lapse or some other media.

The principle they are recording becomes art, but the only evidence of it ever having occurred is the photographic medium they are choosing to record it on.

The reason I mentioned ownership was because of the 'animals can’t own copyrights' - would that insinuate that the copyright 'rights' just evaporate into nothingness by default, or is there an alternative default position that could be taken.

Eg: My cat nose butts a camera, triggers a photo, takes a cute photo of herself.
The law says she cannot own the copyright of that photo - but would that mean it defaults to the owner of the cat?
Eg: The Human owns the cat, who took the photo - therefore could potentially claim that the photo is a derivative work generated by his property.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               

Hmmm, a cat may have been a bad example. Under British law (at least certain parts of it) the domestic cat is considered a wild animal and therefore cannot be owned by anyone (except the cat itself). That is why there is a legal requirement to report a road traffic collision with a dog. Whereas there is no such requirement when a cat is involved.

 

It's just a thought but as this thread has strayed away from NwN, shouldn't this discussion move to the off-topic area of these boards?

 

TR

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               

Hmm.. I am not sure how this became a debate about the legalities of Art...

 

I think you all missed my point... I was hoping to see some discussion on this modern art form.

 

If you want to get into technical legalities I think it is pretty clear. It doesn't make much sense, but the TOS makes it clear. Anything you make in NWN is Biowares. Unlike clay, or paint, whom the makers of those products claim no right to anything produced with it, that's not the case with videogames.

 

It's the same with Fallout, or Oblivion, or what have you. Just look at how FONV co-opted a ton of community content from Fo3 into it. And as far as I know, those contributors got no credit.

 

But regardless, even within that constrained (in the sense that the artists using this medium could never truly be recognized, because it is inevitably biowares...) I don't really care... It's still art to me.

 

If the east German government owned spray-paint companies in east Germany, do you really think graffiti artists cared that they didn't technically own the art they created on the Berlin wall? Hell no!

 

Not to say NWN is a political statement (although I think it could be used as such) or bioware is the videogame equalivelent of east Germany, and bless bioware for not censoring content to that extent (just look at all the adult PWs for example... if that aren't censoring that, I highly doubt they would censor some political mod, or just folks trying to have some fun and express themselves.)

 

And in that sense this medium is also art. It allows freedom of expression.

 

A lot of you all are talking about the legalities of ownership, and profit ( who took the picture here??? I screen shotted it. Does that make me the owner?). Don't get me wrong, I fully support, and think artists should be able to make a living off their work (e.g. doing art), and it is a sad state of our current society that we don't value that as a viable and sustainable profession. But, in this instance, it's a rather unique situation. Perhaps one that will set precedent for the future.

 

It to me is clearly an artistic medium, but unlike clay or paint (or other traditional mediums) also claims ownership to anything created with it. I didn't really want to spur that debate with this post, but it is what it is. What I wanted to do was celibrate the fact that it is an artistic medium. And I thank bioware for that. I truly think, with enough vision, someone somewhere might recognize the potential in this dream, and provide it to the masses to truly create art.

 

At least that is my hope... I think bioware took a step in the right direction, and in fact a bold and to this day unprecedented direction. But it is far from an ideal situation as an artist. Nonetheless I am grateful to them for at least providing this step.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Proleric]

               On Twitter this morning:
 

Writing is despotism but reading is democracy. - @PhilipPullman #WHC2014

The OC raises many interesting issues. In the digital age, the construction of our own art from components is obviously in its infancy, with many new possibilities (just as the mass production of oil paint in tubes enabled Impressionism and all other modern painting, not only for professionals, but also as a hobby).

EDIT : re-reading this, I'm aware of digressing into commercial issues again, but, in the real world, it's almost inescapable. Yes, modding is art, no doubt, the question to my mind is how to make it happen.

Companies remain uncertain about how to monetarise component technology, or even whether empowering amateurs is a threat or an opportunity commercially. Evidently, even Bioware has had an internal debate about it. For example, the Dragon Age franchise team were publically committed and enthusiastic about modding, but, after launch, no modding budget was approved by Bioware's higher management. So, in this case at least, modding was clearly perceived as good for brand sales (Dragon Age) but bad for overall group profitability (Bioware / EA), perhaps because it cannibalises player time, or simply fails to generate sufficient return on investment.

Given the current rules of the game (the Bioware EULA), everyone here knows I'm very keen on open content for modding, but in future there must be scope for manufacturers to release components and tools at a reasonable price, provided everyone has an opportunity to recoup the cost from players. I'm aware of one or two initiatives along those lines, but we're still a long way from having open standards for engines that would enable a truly competitive environment for both professional and fan creativity.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Proleric, 10 août 2014 - 09:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

Back to the modding... i think that with the todays hardware and the engines that supports realistic environments and extreme high poly models modding will be less attractive to many people just because the creation of said stuff is getting more and more complex. Where we use 3000 polys in a complete tile with a rural building they use 75000 for just a simple small cabin with walls, windows, a roof and some details. Then the texture resolution is abnormal. TO create a 2048 texture is very difficult when you have a desktop resolution of lets say... 1280*720 (that is mine)... it´s impossible for me to do and i dont realy need that stuff.

But they push the engines further and further and so it´s just to diffcult for a hobbiest to do some maps, buildings or creatures for very new games.

 

When i´m honest to myself i havent much evolved "technically" since i worked with nwn but what has changed is that i can create what i want and i always can overcome the limiatitions and that made me evolved in something i would call... a creative creator of game art. I dont know many more stuff from 3dsmax then back in the days... but designing things you learn and how you create things you imagine.

 

Maybe we have left the top of the modding mountain in general and are going downwards but the people who stay with the "older" games they know and appreciate will be some sort of a dying generation of gamers. Or we have a real flashback and people come back to games that are less highend but open source and much easier to access. Like minecraft, NWN, the 2d adventure game creators (must add the edler scrolls games because bethesda realy is cool in that regard!) etc. Because in the end it doesnt makes much sense to learn all the complex tools when you can just create a fun game or mod for something that already has an established modding community, tools and templates etc. So we could see a split between developers and modders and modders realize that they should try to make themself more free and independant from the gaming entertainment business because we do it for fun or fame (at times) but defintaley not to sell a product that has to follow the modern hardware setups.

 

My prediction (which is stupid to do but anyway) would be that most modding will happen on older games or games that are "old school" like and easy to use but less EPIC looking and developers will not focus to much on it at all because they know their stuff is always high end and so not doable for ordinary people who wants to be creative. I also dont think it is important that one uses the latest games to mod but that he finds something that is perfect for his/ her needs. A writer only needs some paper and a pencil '>

 

And you can see that modding morphs into something different already and that is "i want that stuff here in the game and my ideas are very good so please consider them serious"...  so you will have a lot of complainers and brainstormers in the dev. forums before the games are even released. Lots of theoretical nonsense from people with no clue that they are just customers and they could do it (trough modding other games) but no they want THAT game has that because it is NEW and COOL...

 

Wow. so the new type of "modders" are theoretical lazy hipsters who complain and brainstorm about game ideas for a game that is soon to be released and the other people stay away from the idea of modding up-to-date games and keep doing their thing with the good ole dusty classics!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Proleric]

               Certainly, right now, modding older games is more viable, because the new ones involve so many specialised skills and are very labour-intensive. However, I remember a time when it seemed that we'd be stuck doing text adventures, because the newer graphics were beyond most of us. Then NWN came along, with everything nicely packaged for modders. So while NWN is, no doubt, an island of practicality in a sea of complexity, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that, one day, another island might emerge.

After all, games manufacturers are always looking at how they can simplify their internal development processes, since productivity is a key cost driver, so a new era of simplification is not out of the question.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

... i felt guilty to even mention that thing!