Author Topic: Shapeshifter, Good at Many Forms (Non-MinMax)  (Read 2163 times)

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2014, 06:53:43 am »


               


1. We don't know that he is casting it as a druid. Regardless, the toon still has the feat, regardless of why he can cast the spell. Casting an empowered sorcerer spell and and empowered paladin spell doesn't require a multiclassed sorcerer-paladin toon to have two empower feats. I know there are ways to reason that the feat shouldn't apply, but there are reasons that it should, too. Bioware chose to allow it to.


2. First, as far as I can tell, we don't know that the shifted rakshasa is inherently an arcane caster rather than a divine caster. The shape comes from a spinoff class (shifter) of a divine casting class. There are many ways in which shifted PC rakshasa are different from their non-shifted kin. Second, and more relevant, regardless of which sort of magic the rakshasa casts, it doesn't follow that all arcane casters would cast the same spell at the same level. Bards are arcane casters and don't have all of their spells at the same levels as wizards. And, tellingly, bards are arcane casters and cast Ice Storm as a level 6 spell.




1. Indeed. Said that before, but again. The reason why is possible to cast it metamagically is that character is actually not casting the version of the spell that comes from shape, but rather version of the same spell from his other class, whether is it druid, bard, cleric or wizard. Thus every spell informations such as spell level, caster level and last cast are as if the character cast the spell normally outside of the shape. Again, this is 1:2 chance that its intented. If you guys really care that much I can look into hardcode, maybe it reveals the secret '<img'>.


 


2. True. Normally, the rakshasa shape wouldnt give character access to any extra spells, only special abilities (which however can be spell-like ones), and race properties such as SR. The rakshasa is a race not a creature it can be a druid, bard, whatever. Bioware made the shapeshifting simplified because the true shapeshifting per DnD is really extremely complicated (and needlessly, the Bio way is nice too). The ultimate answer is that shifter is imitating the other creatures, from this reason any specvial abilities and spells he imitate should be cast from the shifter class with a class level as caster level.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2014, 07:50:13 am »


               


1. Indeed. Said that before, but again. The reason why is possible to cast it metamagically is that character is actually not casting the version of the spell that comes from shape, but rather version of the same spell from his other class, whether is it druid, bard, cleric or wizard. Thus every spell informations such as spell level, caster level and last cast are as if the character cast the spell normally outside of the shape. Again, this is 1:2 chance that its intented. If you guys really care that much I can look into hardcode, maybe it reveals the secret '<img'>.




 


Actually the phenomenon of using the first class was not limited to polymorph casting.  The holy avenger (pre-1.69) forgot to signal that the item was used when casting the dispel.  Therefore the character's first class was consulted for the caster level.  In "fixing" this behavior, all BioWare did was have the dispel signaled as item cast, thus taking the default caster level value of 10.  For this reason it would seem that default behavior of consulting the first class was decided based on the possibility of obtaining an error, not on a specific usage of it.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2014, 08:07:34 am »


               

Just to reiterate,


 


My use of the term "exploit" was to bring question to this post, which is the first time "exploit" was used in this discussion.  Waschlaff, actually pressed the charge further to suggest using the monk levels for caster level is "breaking the game."  So I thought it only fair to compare his negative reaction to what I did, to something he likely was already promoting.  If anyone wishes to call class combos "exploits" because they give more advantage than other class combos (including using monk with shifter) there is likely going to be inconsistency with the builds one likes to make.


 




Short answer is "yes".


 


The long answer...


 


....i don't do exploits. Its against my build philosophy. If somebody wants to break the game, thats their cup of tea - i want to play it. Takes the fun right out of it for me. It works so well you don't have to do it. You don't have to. As i said i don't even take the monk-wis-AC with me anymore, as i don't feel i need it. Haha +10 AC, great! No wait... do i actually really need that? Necessarily? Am i really going to shell out a level for +10 AC? Hmm... i think i get a greater adventurers robe instead...




               
               

               
            

Legacy_brgjoe

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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2014, 08:52:14 am »


               

This brings back memories.  I remember playing a module where some of the spawns were ridiculously rapid.  The mobs would be on you before you know it and it wouild have taken forever to slog your way through them just hacking/slashing one's way through 'em.  I created a build around the Rak Shifter somewhere around the order of (I think) 13 Druid/10 Shifter/17 Monk.  Whatever level it was that a Druid could cast an Empowered Ice Storm.  So I put that that one in my quick slot and used the Rakshasa to run around with that Monk speed and cast those unlimited Ice Storms. 


 


Proved to be a very good hit and run area of effect clearer-outter.  Ah, memories...  '<img'>


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2014, 04:52:23 pm »


               

Here is my take on the shifter.  This class tends to be too much a jack of all trades, but you can specialize a bit.


 


One way is to start as an Elf Druid, and complete Kingmaker and then Darkness over Daggerford.


The first module contains a ring which gives you the feat Alertness, so you don't need to spend one of your feats to gain entry into the Shifter class.


At the end of Kingmaker you would be about 8th level, just right for the Darkness module.  In Daggerford you will find some leather armour that gives you the whirlwind attack feat.  This allows you to become a weapon master earlier than normal.  That is important, because at level 13, providing you have kept the armour, you know become a weapon master with a longsword weapon focus.  Those 7 levels of weapon master will mean you will have 4 attacks by level 20.  Your Shifters main form will be Drow.  As a humanoid, any weapon you carry will turn into a longsword, which of course, you are lethal with.


 


Suggested route: Druid to level 5, then 7 Shifter  levels to 12, then 7 Weaponmaster levels to level 19, then 9 Shifter levels to level 28.  


Suggested feats: dodge at level 1, longsword weapon focus at level 3, expertise level 6, mobility level 9, spring attack level 12, either alertness or whirwind attack at level 15, and either alertness or whirwind attack at level 18. The last two are prestige class requirement, and once you have these, those two items are no longer necessary.  You tend to be about level 18 at the end of DOD, and will not then have to worry about playing modules that start with all your kit taken, eg Hordes of Underdark.  


 


Exotic weapon proficiency at level 21 is also a good idea, as plenty of exotic weapons have groovy properties.


 


If you are a human, this method works just as well, but using a spear as your weapon of choice.  You could then be a weapon master as early as level 10, and your main form would be Drider.


 


Just a few thoughts '<img'>.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2014, 11:14:46 pm »


               

 



Suggested route: Druid to level 5, then 7 Shifter  levels to 12, then 7 Weaponmaster levels to level 19, then 9 Shifter levels to level 28.  

Suggested feats: dodge at level 1, longsword weapon focus at level 3, expertise level 6, mobility level 9, spring attack level 12, either alertness or whirwind attack at level 15, and either alertness or whirwind attack at level 18. The last two are prestige class requirement, and once you have these, those two items are no longer necessary.  You tend to be about level 18 at the end of DOD, and will not then have to worry about playing modules that start with all your kit taken, eg Hordes of Underdark. 




 


Interesting take.  Won't work for the epic character builder's guild as using item properties to qualify is a no no (although some have reasoned that properties fundamental to polymorphs are OK in this regard). Looking at your leveling guide, you could just take alertness of the bat, no need for the ring, and then take the weapon master feats (minus spring attack because it isn't actually required, and whirlwind attack which you are getting from an item).


 


However, if you plan to invest in druid significantly (e.g. 12+ levels) then you could just delay weapon master levels till the epics and not have to worry about having an illegal character for a period of time.


 



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2014, 02:26:56 pm »


               


 



 


 


Interesting take.  Won't work for the epic character builder's guild as using item properties to qualify is a no no (although some have reasoned that properties fundamental to polymorphs are OK in this regard). Looking at your leveling guide, you could just take alertness of the bat, no need for the ring, and then take the weapon master feats (minus spring attack because it isn't actually required, and whirlwind attack which you are getting from an item).


 


However, if you plan to invest in druid significantly (e.g. 12+ levels) then you could just delay weapon master levels till the epics and not have to worry about having an illegal character for a period of time.


 



 




I don't even know what the epic character builder's guild is?


The reason that you need to take at least 4 weapon master levels (and no more than 8 druid and 8 shifter levels) before level 21 is to get 4 attacks a round. 


All I can say is that it works when I play solo.


 


However, I'm not a big fan of the shifter.


 


 


               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2014, 11:28:03 pm »


               




I don't even know what the epic character builder's guild is?




 


The epic character builder's guild is one of the oldest guilds in NWN history.  It is about making a large number good character builds for anyone to use.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Nick The Noodle

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« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2014, 09:28:14 am »


               


 


The epic character builder's guild is one of the oldest guilds in NWN history.  It is about making a large number good character builds for anyone to use.




Thanks.