"Trying to turn the D&D rules into a DPS style game is IMHO really a no-go. You are cutting out most of what I consider the fun of playing. It is why most NWN PWs that are purely PG based normally have such huge balancing problems - because the roles being evaluated DPS-wise were never construed to be done so in such a manner."
Is asking whether he thinks such PWs are basically a fruitless endeavor and kind of pointless to make with the NWN engine such a crazy thing given his statements?
Sorry to cut inbetween both you and FS here - but this has to be addressed once and for all.
Ah, yes, it is. What I said, posted, and meant, is that to use the NWN Aurora Engine as a base for a PvM (Players vs Monsters, normally a moniker for PG style gameplay) Server basically means that you will have to redo just about everything.
See HG for what I mean here, for it is one of the shining examples of a Staff that has taken these issues seriously, and gone way beyond the standard resources to solve hard balancing issues inherent within both the ruleset offered (NWN) and the Engine limitations.
These issues exist, because, as I have posted, the source ruleset (D&D) was not created with PvM as a basis. It was created as a party based, DM run game, where roles are important, and a balanced party is expected, with a DM modifying things so that all can have fun playing their chosen roles. We call this a "role playing game".
To change this into a PvM style game (PG style, remember?), one has to alter sooo much, it is for me just not worth it. For me. FS and his staff obviously found it worth it, and have put in the work to accomplish this (although I rather suspect, that if they had known how much work they would have to invest in the first place, they may never have gone on this journey to start with! Note that this is soley my opinion, as I can't personally speak for them).
I have no idea how other teams have done in their journey down this road. I know that I bit my teeth out trying to do it way back then with The Playground (which was basically a PvM style PW) and realized that it was simply beyond my (and my staffs) capabilities. In other words, it was requiring too much work, and my scriptor basically almost flunked out of college trying to persue solutions the to problems we encountered, which pretty much went like this :
Identify problem
Make changes
Run down problems caused by changes
Rinse, repeat.
It basically lead to the "chase your tail around in a circle" type of things, which were incredibly time-intensive, and horrifyingly more and more complex! Somewhere along the line, as I stated, parts of the staff just...had to drop out and concentrate more on RL issues.
So my compliments to HG and any other style PvM (PG style) PW out there, that has faced these issues and refused to give up. But to any who are considering doing this, they should be aware of just what a mountain they are choosing to climb.
I personally consider the climb not worth the view at the top. And this is what I meant - not that it is "silly" or "stupid" to do it, or even a waste of time. To those who do it, and succeed, more power to them, for they have truly accomplished something. For me, personally, a journey not worth taking.
Some things in this discussion between both you and FS seem to be going in different directions here, which seem odd.
You expound the idea of DPS as the "catch all" of terms. Meaning here, that it is the only thing that matters. I understand that you come from a WoW background, and that in WoW this is true. FS is trying to inform you that in a PvM (PG style) NWN environment, this does not hold true.
FS is informing you coming from a NWN PvM environment, where the complexities of the type of changes necessary to the ruleset and game engine (as I have described) detail that "mere" DPS is not the only thing that matters (among other things here).
I personally have only the following to say about all this (some of the things me and my staff ran into).
In D&D, you have the roles that I have already posted. It is not my opinion, it is fact. Described in the rulesets of yore, and continued throughout the years (although we see that in 4ed, it is departing from this, but that is another issue, entirely). This is due to the nature of what the game was designed to be - a role playing game, involving a group of players playing together, with one being a "DM" (sometimes referred to as a GM (game master) or Referee, etc).
Many of the rules are NOT designed for combat alone! Many exist soley for non-combat purposes, which basically provide all the evidence one really needs to see that D&D was not created with a DPS game style in mind.
Even when we start to get into combat, as FS is pointing out, when using the D&D ruleset as a "base", we have an incredible amount of resources, techniques, spells, skills, abilities, etc in which to take into consideration. All of them influence "balance". Not all of them are able to be calculated into DPS (FS has described some of them, like Epic Dodge, Concealment, Listen skill, and so on...)
But let us get back to the basics here - one of the things that first came to my attention is the BAB differences between the class roles...
You have Fighter BAB, which is 1. Meaning, for each level, you have 1 AB.
You have Cleric and Rogue BAB, which is 3/4. Meaning exactly that.
You have Mage BAB, which is 1/2. Also meaning exactly that.
These are the melee capabilities of the 4 classes. Which basically means, without any type of balancing, you automatically have a DPS disparity when purely considering combat here (no other influences!).
If you make your m0bs "hittable" for your Mages, then Clerics and Rogues will find things easy, and Fighters will laugh at the simplicity. If you make them hittable for Clerics and Rogues, your Mages will whine, and no-one will play them, and Fighters will still find things easy. If you make things only hittable for Fighters, all others whine, and no-one will play them.
It is here, at the foundations of the ruleset, where DPS breaks down. From the very start, as one can see. It is here that if one wishes to make this ruleset into a PvM (PG style) game, one has to start from.
There is an inherent difference in these classes, built into them, especially combat-wise. This is intentional, as only the Fighter class was meant to be used for combat purposes. The other 3 classes have other roles to fill.
Now, one can begin to take spells into account for DPS here. But as is obvious, such is only for a limited amount, as Mages and Clerics were limited in the amount of magic that they could use. While a Fighter can dish out DPS the entire time, Mages and Clerics can only due so for limited amounts of time. Meaning that they have to kind of "spare" their resources...conserve them, so to speak.
This is because D&D is based on the "Jack Vance" style of Magic - memorization. Only a limited amount could be memorized, and with every casting, was "gone", so to speak. Other rulesets began to introduce a point-based Magic system, where Mana points (whatever) were used up to cast spells. A move that moves closer to a true DPS based magic system.
Then somewhere along the line, someone came up with the "all abilites are based on time" sort of system - regardless of what "class" they belong to. Meaning they can be activated, and then are on a timer before they can be used again. Ergo, DPS for all.
This, however, is not D&D, is it? Nope.
My question is, if you are going to be using the D&D ruleset (with the class roles as I outlined above pre-defined, according to the ruleset) for a PvM (PG) style environment, how are you going to address this issue? What are you going to do with all those "left over" skills, spells, abilities, etc? You know, the ones that make the other roles besides your Fighter relevant? How are you going to "tweak" them into combat, DPS orientated ones? What imbalances will that introduce, and what will have to be done to solve them? What will those changes bring into the whole "balance vs inbalance" topic?
It is like sticking your finger into the proverbial hole-in-the-dike - another hole just pops up.
There are just sooo many factors to take into consideration, that are not directly DPS related. Even the Fighter has things they can do, access to skills, etc, that influence DPS but are not directly related, like Taunting the enemy, for example (to reduce AC, increase hit chance).
The other classes just throw so many things into the fray (so to speak) that it gets...kind of crazy.
Of course, one could just go with Fighters here - BAB issue solved. Let them all cast Magic equally, Rogue skill equally, and Cleric skill equally. Basically what you have here, is a form of Play that actually exists in NWN - it has to do with super 2das, etc.
You basically only had one "class" that everyone played, and only player skill really mattered. This was, of course, only PvP. So there you have it - a DPS based NWN game. Pack out your super 2das and letoed .bics, please. I hope you are not trying to make computer AI opponents for these guys...they can even kill DMs...
