Author Topic: Arnheim Weapon Modification  (Read 729 times)

Legacy_ffbj

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Arnheim Weapon Modification
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 07:13:31 pm »


               Yeah that's would be possible saying all polearms could give a bonus to intimidate.  I just think the scythe could be considered as a special case. I wouldn't call it a scythe anymore either. In fact the article says it is more like a fauchard. As Web Shaman was saying too. As a standard weapon of warfare the traditional scythe was not good, but it's ready availability in the ever possible peasant revolt, made it weapon that did show up in battles. Interesting history. So the 5,000 man peasnt army probably had real traditional scythes.

The psychological effect is intertwined with the grim reaper idea. I mean they could have depicted him, the reaper, with a sickle instead, another tool for harvesting, but the scythe is a more threatening looking weapon. So it's not sheer speculation nor assumption. It's more like a conjecture from historical knowledge an representations of the particular weapon and it's associations with death, which would have such an impact.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ffbj, 24 août 2012 - 06:20 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 08:11:49 pm »


               Good point ffbj, I had neglected to consider the grim reaper/ death when I was assessing the point about the scythe's psychological impact. That argument is a considerably more solid foundation to build a ruling upon.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 10:17:22 pm »


               Well this has all helped me sort through my choice of including the scythe as a simple weapon.

But what about any other ideas I have put out there? '<img'>  Are they all so much crap, that they are beneath notice?

EXAMPLES:
I've made crossbows rarer weapons to have proficiency in. They are martial weapons, and of the specific class weapon lists only the Wizard class is granted both.

Meanwhile the Shortbow is a simple weapon as it is a hunting tool, and the longbow a martial weapon.

Since tools are important in my setting (knives, hammers, axes) I've also made at least one of those classes of weapons available to each charater class - except wizards don't get an axe weapon since I don't see them chopping up firewood or through wooden doors all that often.

The break down of type of damage a weapon deals and how that interacts with armor is fairly signifiant as well. So this makes bludgeoning damage more important, as that is harder to defend against. Max DR versus bludgeoning damage is set at 3. While heavy armors range up to 6 DR versus piercing and/or slashing. This makes a maul (two handed hammer on a pole) a nice weapon when dealing with someone in a suit of plate which has the following DR break down: B3 P6 S6.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par henesua, 24 août 2012 - 09:28 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_ffbj

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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2012, 03:40:33 pm »


               Usually when people don't get all up in arms about changes it means they find them acceptable or reasonable. Historically there where the famous Zulu warriors who carried a short spear and shield, and making crossbows more rare and martial seems ok. Though crossbows did not require the hours of training a day that were required to stay proficient with,  like the longbow, as a mechanical devise they had higher construction requirements, i.e. better technological prowess was required to construct them.  Thus the rarity factor, but later once mass production came in they were all over the place, and steadily they supplanted other bows, since any dolt could use them and they packed quite a punch and could also piece plate armor, as could the long bow.
So the demise of plate resulted from the piercing power that eventually drove plate armor from the battlefield.
For instance Agincourt.  So it's all about time and place.  At one time piercing weapons were inferior against plate and then plate was gone because of it.  Most people surmise, incorrectly, that gun powder was the end of plate, but it was already on the way out,  but that development, gunpowder/muskets sped it's dissapearance from the field. Though the fully armored knight was gone plate still lingered, but mostly just as a breast piece, like the conquistidors.  Though in modern times soldiers still wear helmets,  flack jackets , vestiges of the past.  And now we have kevlar, and ceramic armors, which could be viewed as the resurgence of plate.

I like the 2d damage changes on say the flails, since it offers a higher based damage, while the quarterstaff was a much more versatile weapon as you suggest.
I think the focus on the scythe is due to the fact that it is such an outlandish and unusual weapon with much less mass adaptation in actual warfare, and combat in general.

In a fantasy setting the idea that all types of armors and weapons, which were developed over the centuries and went in and out of favor as armor became better and tactics changed, are somehow to reasonably coexist at the same time and same place, is quite a stretch. So if your setting is France around the time of the musketeers, you are not going to see many people walking around in plate mail.
You treatment of plate is reasonable: slash/pierce do less damage than blunt, but maybe when they do critical, at least the piercing,  they do more damage, as above regarding xbows vrs.plate. I think the blunt extra damage is fine though as the counterbalance to the fact that blunt cannot be keened. Except remember plate is not real plate as it was. It does not slow you down for instance, and most worlds don't have fatigue systems, though no one is going to run around in plate armor for any length of time. Heck they even had to put knights on their horses with wenches, and not the kind that serve beer. It is really an insoluable problem, so all you can do is something like you have done. Come up with an approximation of how things might have worked. I'm no expert but your approach seems accurate.

Fanatasy is just that, derived from fantastic, as in unusual or unbelievable, not our current take as something wonderful, though that is part of it too. So you just have to construct your fantastic world, with a tad of verisimilitude, which is what you are trying to do.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ffbj, 25 août 2012 - 03:20 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2012, 04:13:54 pm »


               

ffbj wrote...
... and making crossbows more rare and martial seems ok.  Though crossbows did not require the hours of training a day that were required to stay proficient with, say like the longbow.


With regards to using them effectively in a unit however, crossbows did require training. And they are harder to create and manage as opposed to the longbow whose advantage is largely economics (easy to make) and rate of fire. Longbowmen were often trained peasants as well... anyway. Thats the thinking that lead me to those changes to bows.

ffbj wrote... 
I like the 2d damage changes on say the flails, since it offers a higher based damage, while the quarterstaff was a much more versatile weapon as you suggest.


Yes I have trained (some) in the use of the staff along with rattan sticks and swords. I am impressed by staves. Very good weapon. In the hands of a master I think you can match any swordsman. One nice bonus is that it is not normally considered a weapon.

ffbj wrote...  
Except remember plate is not real plate as it was.  It does not slow you down for instance, and most worlds don't have fatigue systems, though no one is going to run around in plate armor for any length of time.


I've made a suit of plate very expensive, custom tailored/sized to the wearer, and all heavy armor is indeed heavy. I've also done my best to approximate mobility issues with terrain effects. Muddy ground will seriously slow down PCs with heavy gear (reducing AC, speed, reflex saves etc...), and send swimmers to the bottom. Climbing and squeezing through gaps are also affected. So in a small way I try to keep the downsides of heavy armor in play. Its not been heavily tested in game yet though. Most of my players have not been able to acquire a suit of plate.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ffbj

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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2012, 04:45:56 pm »


               Yeah, I agree about crossbows. Sometimes I will not go into every aspect such rate of fire, versatility, training, as these aspects pretty much come with the territory. Plus you have regionality for instance the English Yew longbow. I have a couple of friends with real swords and boy are they heavy, or rather they get heavy real quick. Gives you some perspective on the conditioning that would be required to be a combatant. Oh and on bows just speculating here, but you have the fatigue aspect. While most crossbows would require a mechanical assist or be foot-cocked, there's the training part, I would surmise they required less of an expenditure of fatigue than say the longbow with it's high pull weight.

Regarding the staff, yes, I always associate  that with trasping around the countryside with your longstaff, like Little John, or maybe some martial chinese monks walking the roads with their staffs as protection against bandits or animals, and you could openly carry it, unlike most weapons which would be frowned upon, for you were identifying yourself as a bandit. Yes a light, versatile, decent defensive, high impact weapon that has gotten short shrift in the fantasy gaming setting in general. The focus seems to be on larger and more outlandish weapons,as in who can create the most impossible weapon to wield.
I get sick of stuff like that.

Without a fatigue system it's difficult to really represent plate as it should be imho, since you run as fast in plate as you do in your knickers.  One thing I did was to make boots of speed which are affected by your armor.  Guys in metal armor don't run as fast in them for example.  My buddy tells me not to think of it as real plate, or other metal armors, but as a representation of a particular armor type.  Thus while you don't get all the real benefits you would have from actual plate, conversely you don't suffer all the negative consequences.  I can live with that, up to a point.  One thing I do is only put soaks/%immunities on metal armors, but I add additional penaties to them,  more minus to tumble and use magic device.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ffbj, 25 août 2012 - 04:02 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 05:24:21 pm »


               Made a few more tweaks to armor. I thought the lighter armors needed more benefits from high dex since dex based characters get short shrift.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 05:12:52 am »


               Considering issues of balance with clerics, and flavor, I decided to take heavy armor away from them as an automatic feat at level 1. So if a cleric in Arnheim wants to wear heavy armor they need to use up a feat.

Any thoughts? Does this make a difference? Keep in mind that all heavy armor in Arnheim has significant damage resistance against the basic damage types (up to 6 against piercing and slashing 3 against bludgeoning).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 02:59:33 pm »


               <whispering...>

I like this.

Heavily armored Knights Templar were *not* the norm for clerics and heavy armor (and some of those martial weapons) *should* be specialized rather than inherent.

Chain mail and maces, yes. Full plate and zweihanders? Um, no, please.

Not without training in a martial order...

<...so the dwarf doesn't hear>
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 17 novembre 2012 - 02:59 .