Summons Discussion

[Legacy_henesua]

               Web, not interested in argument just for arguments sake. Already agreed with you on the multiple summons thing and explained how I would implement it in some detail.

I posted a script and examples of creatures I am making. Plenty to dig into there. If you don't want to respond to those things fine. But I'm not interested in fighting about it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

henesua wrote...
I posted a script and examples of creatures I am making. Plenty to dig into there. If you don't want to respond to those things fine. But I'm not interested in fighting about it.

Going from the summon blueprint to the real creature blueprint is not going to convince people who are opposed to summoning in general (due to XP costs)  to take up summoning.  If you want these people hooked on your summoning system, you have to make something impressive or negate the XP penalty.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Simply to get feedback.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

SHOVA wrote...

These are made even more problematic when they do not un-summon on rest, so the caster can bring them back if they did without a thought.

What I did in my module is that I decremented summon familiar/animal feat if they have familiar/animal summoned already.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Henesua: If you ask me then your low summons duration sounds like good
idea, yet personally trying to get as close to rules as possible. Unless
you changed all spells, strenghtening lower summon makes no sense to
me. The magic missile is also weaker than ILSM/IGMS, but the point is
that you get access to IGMS later and to get on that level you need to
use magic missile. I would understand the need to change in on a module
where is starting lvl at 40 for example, but if this is ordinary low lvl
module, whats the reason? The lower summons are generally used. Who can
trying to avoid them due to the XP penalty, who can't find them very
helfull. They become useless since epic levels, but thats only because all
builders are building epic areas same way as pre-epic ones. That
is monsters scaled to lvl 20+, yet in the PnP this is different. Epic
character in PnP meets still pre-epic creatures but in greater ammount.
There isn't so many epic creatures actually and those existing are quite
rare - psionics, demons, planars so in default environment player won't
meat them actually so the most XP rewards comes from quests i guess. In NWN we are all simply scaling normal creatures to lvl 20+ which makes
summons with their unscaled stats useless.

I dont know what you are building, but my opinion is that summons do not need to change until epic levels. Until then, they are quite balanced actually.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Unless you changed all spells, strenghtening lower summon makes no sense to me.

I am changing all spells. In this case all summoning spells. The summons I showed are just an example of the kind of thing I am doing, the direction I would like to go. While I am slightly increasing the strength of the lower summons, I think the changes I am making offset that.

ShaDoOoW wrote...
I dont know what you are building, but my opinion is that summons do not need to change until epic levels. Until then, they are quite balanced actually.

I was going with the assumption that the summons from 1-9 are a good baseline to follow. BUT for the additional summons I am making, I am adjusting each of their strengths and weaknesses so that they are stronger in some circumstances and weaker in others. For example look at how low some of those HP are. That offsets the creature's immunities. The different kinds of attacks also give each summons an advantage in certain circumstances, and none in others.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I wish to go over some of the criteria here (and no, I am not interested in arguing here, it is the feedback that you wished for that I am giving) :

Summon 1 - 9
Duration (minutes) =  5+(CasterLevel*2)-(SpellLevel*2)
Metamagic Extend doubles this number
After the above is finished, if Duration is less than 10, then it is set at 10 (+1 for metamagic extend)

This means that lower level summons last longer than higher level summons. A 20th level mage casting a Level 1 summons, has a summons for 43 minutes of game play. A 1st-3rd level mage has the same creature for 10 minutes of game play. That 20th level mage  likewise gets a Level 9 summons for 27 minutes.

By way of comparison, a standard server set up enables a summons of any level to last for 24 hours (48 minutes of game play).

First of all, a tiny bit of nitpicking - A 20th level mage casting a level 1 summons has a summons for 43 minutes of game play.  Yup.  Since 24 hours is 48 minutes (as noted in your post above), that basically is pretty close.  Add in extended metamagic, and it is over.  That 20th level mage gets a level 9 summons for 27 - no extention possible - so I rather suspect that everyone will be taking a level of Cleric, the Animal Domain and extended metamagic to get better summons for longer durations.

In essence, your new system actually forces the need to have the Cleric Animal Domain for summons for more summons power and extended metamagic (in the case of a Spellcaster relying on Summons, of course).

Since most Spellcasters take the extended metagmagic feat, this is really not a "ding" for Spellcasters.  And the loss of one level of spellcasting ability does not really hurt the spellcaster here, does it?  In fact, it actually helps in the case of the summons, since the new calculation will be the following :

19th level mage (1 level Cleric) = 43 - 16 = 27 minutes of summons * 2 for extended 54 minutes!  And this for an 8th level summons.

So I rather suspect that the 7th level spell summons is going to be "teh r0xx0rs" here - giving the most "bang for the buck" effect.

Let us take a look - 19th level mage (1st level Cleric with Animal Domain and Extended Metamagic feat) = 43 - 14 = 29 minutes of summons * 2 for extended metamagic feat for 58 minutes of essentially an 8th level Summons!

Compare that with a "normal" 8th level summons cast by a 20th level Mage here = 45 - 16 = 29 * 2 (for extended Metamagic) = 58 minutes as well.

Both the same duration, right?

BUT!!!!

The 19th level Mage with 1 level of Cleric has MORE spellslots that can be devouted to 8th level summons castings!  This means that basically, the 19th level Mage can save his 8th level spells for something else - and that is more economical.

Plus the Spellcaster in question gets access to heavy armor, shield, Cleric Weapons and a small bonus in HPs (one Cleric d6).

Your system basically rewards meta-gaming.  Is that your aim?

Of course, the 9th level spells are not extendable, so that at least does tend to somewhat limit the duration of the Elementals.  Is this your main "beef" then?  The 9th level summons?

I am curious, then, how you plan to limit the Druid's Elemental Swarm spell (obviously one of the most powerful Summons in the game).

Also, as demonstrated, what are you doing to limit the power of a Cleric with Animal Domain (as pointed out here)?

As I stated, it seems that CoDzillas are enjoying a "boost" here by the nerfing implimented...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 25 juin 2012 - 05:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Here is another suggestion Henesua, is randomize the summons levels 1-6. make 3 - 7 more creatures for each level, with powers/abilities lessor, but up to the standard creature for that level summon. Example, for 1st level summon, you could get the badger (the most powerful of that level) or a raven, a snake, a rat, or a penguin. give the rat 2 hit points, the raven 4, the snake 3, and the penguin 1. Use the summon 7-9 as the template for the randomness. This is another thing that I did in my mod.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               And now we come to Familiars.

Well, most are only useful early on (levels 1-3, perhaps more or less depending on the magic level of the environment).  Beyond these levels, most Familiars are basically dead weight PGwise.  They then mostly have a RP value after that, with the notable exception of perhaps the Fairy (with the ability to locate and disarm traps).  Very annoying sound FX, however...hehe.

As a very experienced Mage player, I can state that Familiars ala NWN style are not all that great at higher levels, and perhaps are only useful for disarming traps...one way or another, or getting enemies to come, etc.  They do tend to make great scouts, the ones with Invis or Impr. Invis (Fairy Dragon, for example).  One can possess them, scout ahead, and then make plans accordingly.  For a Trap orientated Mage, they are really nice for luring m0bs into hordes of laid down traps (possess is great for this!).

Good thing that NWN does not have the NWN2 (and PnP) ability of allowing a Mage to cast through their familiar!  That would be really, REALLY potent!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

WebShaman wrote...
First of all, a tiny bit of nitpicking - A 20th level mage casting a level 1 summons has a summons for 43 minutes of game play.  Yup.  Since 24 hours is 48 minutes (as noted in your post above), that basically is pretty close.  Add in extended metamagic, and it is over.  That 20th level mage gets a level 9 summons for 27 - no extention possible - so I rather suspect that everyone will be taking a level of Cleric, the Animal Domain and extended metamagic to get better summons for longer durations.

Nice catch. I totally missed that. I'll have to figure out how to remedy that situation. It will be awhile until players get to 9th level spells, but I should solve it now so that they understand how to build their charatcer if they want a level 9 for that length.

WebShaman wrote...
In essence, your new system actually forces the need to have the Cleric Animal Domain for summons for more summons power and extended metamagic (in the case of a Spellcaster relying on Summons, of course).

Yes, that would be true, but I am still working on how I will handle the Animal domain. You have convinced me that it would be best to limit the benefits of the animal domain to summon spells cast as a cleric. It makes sense asthetically. One's granted holy powers shouldn't translate to arcane magic. Also since it is called Animal Domain (I did not change the name of this one) in my module, it should only affect animal summons. So I will fix that.

FYI - I have rewritten much of the standard game behavior in Arnheim so that amongst other things it is not an easy thing to take a level of cleric merely to pickup the animal domain. First one must acquire the knowledge prerequisites for a class prior to taking it. Second, prospective clerics must have been converted to the religion that has the domains, prior to taking the class. Plus, I have religious restrictions... domains and religions are tightly linked, as are classes and religions. And there are taboos that can cause divine spell casting to be lost, as well as turn undead ability etc... Druids for example can't wear metal without suffeering penalties (metal armor is powerful in arnheim) such as loss of spells and magical abilities. Changing religion can thus have disastrous consequences - although it may save a characters life. So anyway, I've integrated the RP and setting with the mechanics so that what were just aesthetic choices in Vanilla NWN have game mechanic implications in Arnheim. I'd rather not bore you with all these details as I doubt you have any interest in playing with us anyway based on our past interactions.

WebShaman wrote...
Of course, the 9th level spells are not extendable, so that at least does tend to somewhat limit the duration of the Elementals.  Is this your main "beef" then?  The 9th level summons?

No. The elementals are the most interesting of the summons.

My main beef was duration as it makes it easy for a spell caster to solo (no i am not considering epic levels at all for level 1-9 spells). If someone wanted to have a summons long enough to clear a dungeon I wanted to ensure that it wasn't easy to do. In vanilla NWN it is effortless to have a relatively powerful meat shield for the standard levels that sticks around a very long time. My goal is for a summons to last 1 encounter as a dominating opponent, and then be iffy for each encounter after that. It should be a one encounter spell not an all day minion. I want other spells to summon the creature from beyond that can be bargained with to stick around etc.... And I'll implement the diverse array of choices you mentioned earlier for those spells. Summon 1-9 however should be canon fodder - or a utility back up (like the pixie seems to be for some wizards as they use it to fill the place of a thief).

My other beef was aesthetic. I didn't think every class should be summoning the same damn animals. For example, I've got civilized clerics that should be summoning something less rustic than their wild counterparts. Once I went down this road I started coming up with the concept I hinted at above with different summons for different classes and religions, each summons having a diverse array of advantages and disadvantages.
As to what the 7-9 level summons will be... no clear idea yet. Elementals will be included, i have not worked out the specifics. PCs have not passed level 3 yet. But I want to have this worked out before they get too farther along.

WebShaman wrote...
And now we come to Familiars.
Well, most are only useful early on (levels 1-3, perhaps more or less depending on the magic level of the environment). Beyond these levels, most Familiars are basically dead weight PGwise. They then mostly have a RP value after that, with the notable exception of perhaps the Fairy (with the ability to locate and disarm traps). Very annoying sound FX, however...hehe.

While I disagree due to my own experience, it is besides the point as I completely changed familiars in Arnheim. I mentioned this above. I agree with you however ont he most important point: that they are most useful in certain instances, and this informed how I changed them with one caveat I hate the pixie because it allows a wizard to be a rogue. (especially since I linked summon/unsummon of familiars to whether or not they were alive not to once per day. their special abilities are unlimited)

I am also working on the ability for familiars to deliver touch attacks. They already have the ability to scout ahead (via flight, stealth, squeezing under doors and through cracks, and generally being something that most people ignore: a small, ubiqutous animal) and mark a location for a future spell cast by the master. Very handy for the teleportation and scry spells. Have not implemented it for others yet, but might. Glyphs and Walls of Fire could be very interesting like this.

So anyway... totally different topic.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 25 juin 2012 - 06:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

henesua wrote...
My goal is for a summons to last 1 encounter as a dominating opponent,
and then be iffy for each encounter after that. It should be a one
encounter spell not an all day minion.

You know you can have the summon destroy itself (unsummon) at the end of an encounter.  Not that difficult to script.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Yes, thats not a challenge, but not so good for a player who plays well enough to get more out of their summons than 1 encounter.