Multi-classing

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

WebShaman wrote...

Highest level was level 6 ...   I can tell you that the characters there were maxed out PG builds!

That seems a bit ridiculous. Seriously most people must have been what, 3rd level?  What does a maxed out PG build look like at 3 level?  Also if they were all PG builds, weren't they all waiting for final level( where was the cap 10?) for their skill dumps. Didn't you guys tell me that it didn't matter how long it took, PG would wait till the final level allowed level for their massive skill dumps and other end loading??

This is pretty much contradictory with such claims from before. You can be both optimized for level three and end loaded on your final 1 level rogue for a skill dump.

What next complaints about 1st level powerbuilds?

The fact is levels do matter, because the fewer levels there are, the smaller the delta that there can be from  a typical average build and PG build.  The gap widens a bit more with more levels you have, but really it doesn't get too out of hand that much until epic where a lot of things hit the wall, AB progression now becomes equal among classes. Ability scores go nuts with epic feats for them.  Epic feats are much more powerful. Full BAB classes can now switch completely and take even 20 levels of spell casters and still have Full BAB.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 07 août 2011 - 08:56 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Seriously most people must have been what, 3rd level?  What does a maxed out PG build look like at 3 level?  Also if they were all PG builds, weren't they all waiting for final level( where was the cap 10?) for their skill dumps. Didn't you guys tell me that it didn't matter how long it took, PG would wait till the final level allowed level for their massive skill dumps and other end loading??

Again. It depens where the major content of the module is. There is no sense to wait for lvl 20 to skilldump if there is nothing at lvl 20 which is the case of servers like that one. So if the server is about low levels then powerbuild is made in way so it has tumble 5/10/15 when its first possible etc.

But servers like this are not challenging and interesting for powergamers. If only dungeon masters rewards experiences than its not about player skill anymore. And powergaming is about skill^_^
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               This ain't about PG vs RP; tis about m/c. Just saying....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Most classes and races on that PW revolved around Half-Orc Barbarians...

Think about it.

The Dalelands full of Half-Orc Barbs.  WTH?

I tried doing a Sorc.  Got waxed at 2nd level by some kobolds.

And I am going to contradict ShaDoOoW here - exactly trying to excel in such a harsh environment really gets my PG blood pumping!  Some of the best PGers are also among the best RPers, btw...

As for reaching the ultimate "level" - well, depending on playstyle, I often find that real RP seems to start there, tbh.  No more real PG accomplishments left, other than to get the RP ones!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Krazy Solo]

               Hmm seems we all agree to disagree or to disagree to agree...  Otherwise there would be losers and winners in this never ending debate of who and when was right and wrong.

As far as Multiclassing I like keeping the M/C in content of the character I'm playing.  Even though I prefer pure class, there is a point where taken a second or third class achieves the goal for the character being played.  Often times I've tried to avoid M/C, but in NWN avoiding Prestige classes is sometimes hard especially when there is a class that greatly boost the characters performance.

Example of such character build would be say a Barbarian who takes up a few levels of Bard, then follow with Red Dragon Disciple.  Not the greatest build but achieves the goal of having both devastating criticals and achieving all of the epic rages.  Sure classified as a power build, but easily role playable as well.  Its a personal preference.

As others may take a pure class approach to a character, but even famous characters in D&D universe have dabble in other classes or even personality wise switched to a new class.  Example of such is Drizzt being a Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter...  Odd but true.  Very rarely does an adventurer stay the course of a single class.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I am always right!  Even when I am wrong, I am right!

Right?

RIGHT!

'>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I am always right!  Even when I am wrong, I am right!

Right?

RIGHT!

'>

*sighs* Grovel go back to work....


               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Yes?  No?  Maybe?

Awwww... *shuffles off*
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Magical Master wrote...

Sorry, been busy.  Back into the fray!

Kail Pendragon wrote...

I use the game mechanics to build a character build which represents that character concept within the specific game mechanics as faithfully as possible (100% being ideal, but that has to clash with the game mechanic limits generally speaking). It has nothing to do with power, it has to do with faithfulness to the concept.

I don't understand how you determine faithfulness.  For example, since we're using the Fighter 39/Wizard 2 example, what makes that more or less faithful than a Fighter 38/Wizard 2 or Fighter 37/Wizard 3?  Or referencing the Cleric 38/Monk 2, how is that more faithful than Cleric 39/Monk 1 or Cleric 35/Monk 5?

Faithfulness in as what renders best my character concept in game and realizes the features he/she is supposed to have as best as possible. Sometimes it will be Cleric 39/Monk 1, some others Cleric 35/Monk 5 etc. Once I know what the character is supposed to be, I make the build that better represents it. The reasons to pick a build instead of another are clearly dependant on the specific concept. I thought that was something simple to understand.

To repeat myself from earlier,

"Actually, I wasn't referring to "level 1" being particularly significant, just that a character with 4 mage levels has spent more time training as a mage than a character with 2 mage levels.  Or would you disagree with that?"

To repeat myself, that has nothing to do whatsoever with an hypothetical FTR 39/Wiz 1 build with access to epic spells being the right build for one's character concept. So, how one is being untrue to character by picking the multiclassing choice that realizes the character concept in game?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Magical Master wrote...

Webshaman wrote...

So the Fighter 39/Wiz 1 can't cast Epic Spells, obviously.  I am sure MM was just using that as an example to compare it with the SD level 1 getting HiPS.

Correct.  My point was that a Wizard 1 being able to cast Epic Spells doesn't make sense conceptually, since we associate more levels in a class with more training in a class, and 1 level of Wizard isn't sufficient training for Epic Spells.  Maybe the Epic Spell isn't a very good Epic Spell and for whatever reason the character winds up actually being worse off by learning to cast it, aka it's not unbalancing.  But it still doesn't make sense conceptually.

And again, this has nothing to do with Ftr 39/Wiz 1 with epic spells being the right build for a character concept of a combatant which can spit out a hellball or make himself impervious to damage. If that is the concept and that build realizes it in game, then it makes perfect sense to use it
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I actually disagree with you here, Kail.  Obviously, it IS possible to build a Ftr 39/Wiz 1 that has Epic Spells in NWN.  All I have to do is do the work, modify some 2das, add some feats to my bic, etc.

But I hardly think that is something that we should be considering here!  I can basically make just about anything that is possible with the NWN Engine...and all available resources.

So we really need a defining ground here, in order for us all to touch bases, right?

So how about we consider vanilla NWN here, without using any resources, and no console.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I actually disagree with you here, Kail.  Obviously, it IS possible to build a Ftr 39/Wiz 1 that has Epic Spells in NWN.  All I have to do is do the work, modify some 2das, add some feats to my bic, etc.

But I hardly think that is something that we should be considering here!  I can basically make just about anything that is possible with the NWN Engine...and all available resources.

So we really need a defining ground here, in order for us all to touch bases, right?

So how about we consider vanilla NWN here, without using any resources, and no console.

I'm saying something different here Web. I'm saying that when a build realizes IG my character concept, then it makes perfect sense to use it and using it is not being untrue to character but rather the opposite. No matter whether someone might find undue, game mechanics wise, that that build combo can get those features.

Forget the Ftr 39/Wiz 1 with epic spells and think Ftr 20/Bard 4/PM 16 with epic spells, 8 Cha and no casting power whatsoever but the aforementioned epic spells. If you really want, imagine it without UMD either. Built as a Str based combatant, say getting Dev Crit too if you want. No spellcasting, but epic spells. And combat prowess. If I want such a character in NWN then I'll use this build combo and won't feel bad about it and neither should anyone that wants to have a combatant that can cast epic spells without being able to handle a single cantrip. Now if you want to argue that access to epic spells without actual casting power is undue, bad design whatever be my guest. But you can't argue that I'm being untrue to character if that is my character concept and I can realize it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

WebShaman wrote...

So how about we consider vanilla NWN here, without using any resources, and no console.

Why, you cannot cheat in single player so its totally fine to consider console.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

So how about we consider vanilla NWN here, without using any resources, and no console.

Why, you cannot cheat in single player so its totally fine to consider console.

It's not about cheating in any way, it's about being true to character. For what I am saying consolle or not doesn't make a difference. I have a character concept and I use all the available game features (possibly including consolle commands, 2da editing etc. when feasible and pertinent) to build it IG, I am being true to character.

Web on the other hand is trying to estabilish a common ground on which to base a discussion, character builds wise, but I suspect you know that.