Weapon Master penalties

[Legacy_fetyr2004]

               Hey

I have yet another question.  If I'm a weapon master with a bastard sword as weapon of choice, do i lose my bonuses if i dual wield that weapon or have a sheild as well?  If I dual wield will the wm bonuses apply to both hands, not just one?  Thanks
 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               You still get WM bonuses related to critical hits, no matter how you wield it. (solo/dual or with shield).

Naturally if you dual wield bastard swords you will get -4 to hit with each because you dual wielding big weapons.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_fetyr2004]

               kk thanks.  With the dual wielding Bastard swords I read that the damage overrides the penalties...  IDK but it was just a forum i read.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par fetyr2004, 21 mars 2011 - 11:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               That is highly situational. I have found that most things that are difficult to kill are difficult to hit, throwing on a -4 to hit isn't helpful, but you can always dual wield bastard swords for style and pull out a shield when you are in trouble, then you get better AC and no minus to hit.

Are you planning to build a Ranger/Blackguard/Weapon Master

In which case you might want to go fighter for the extra feats. You have to burn 6 feats to be a weapon master. That will be tough to do anytime soon as a Ranger.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_fetyr2004]

               Yea atm I'm a lv 3 Fighter and grinding my levels as we speak.  However, I love my bloodletter (I found one in Beggar's Nest) I haven't taken weapon focus yet because I don't know if I want bastard swords or katana's.  I know there are some nice katanas out there but I really like the look of Bastard Swords... Which one is better?  Instead of Blackguard I'm thinking of throwing in rogue.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par fetyr2004, 22 mars 2011 - 12:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_cds13]

               I like the look of Bastard Swords too. I never gained many levels with my characters so I didn't find so many special weapons around but for the Katanas and BSs found around I noticed that usually BSs are enemy-class oriented while Katanas have more general damage
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

fetyr2004 wrote...
Yea atm I'm a lv 3 Fighter and grinding my levels as we speak.  However, I love my bloodletter (I found one in Beggar's Nest) I haven't taken weapon focus yet because I don't know if I want bastard swords or katana's.  I know there are some nice katanas out there but I really like the look of Bastard Swords... Which one is better?  Instead of Blackguard I'm thinking of throwing in rogue.

If you are still planning an exotic DWing WM in the OC, plain fighter is the only way get the required feats in a timely manner and even then, your character won't get all the DW feats until at least level 12 with none of the "standard" feats like toughness, blindfight, KD, etc, or Ftr's WSpec. figured into the mix. If you begin to insert a third class into the build (like rogue), it will take that much longer to develop combat effectiveness without bonus feats.  The coolness has its consequences.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 22 mars 2011 - 02:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               Agree with HipMaestro.

I don't think I ever built a Dual wield/WM. That is 6 feats for WM, 3 feats for Dual, before you can get many of the the other good ones like Cleave, toughness, blindfight, KD, Weap-Spec....

And you need 15 dex, which will be a drag on other abilities and not much real benefit.

Also if you want rogue levels it makes more sense to have rogue at level 1 for the large boost in skill points.

Also did you say you were an elf??? Adding rogue will give you exp penalty now...

If you really want to optimize a build you need to figure out what you want to do before you start playing.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_fetyr2004]

               kk thanks everyone... I've decided to dual wield shortswords for this build as I started it over as a human.  Thanks for the ideas and being so patient with me.  THANKS!!!

With armour for a weapon master, is light better than medium?

Cheers
               
               

               

                     Modifié par fetyr2004, 23 mars 2011 - 03:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               You really change your mind a lot. '>

Best armor is Full Plate unless you have crazy high dexterity. There is really no downside for fighting in heavy armor.

Again I am no fan of dual wield WM.

I did play a fighter/rogue/WM but I went for greatsword instead.  A greatsword does as much damage as two shortsword hits (except for the magic weapon bonuses).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

fetyr2004 wrote...
I've decided to dual wield shortswords for this build as I started it over as a human.

With armour for a weapon master, is light better than medium?

A dual-wielder (or two-hander) will get hit.  Lots.  Unless going as a woodpecker dexer.  So it needs the heaviest armor to stand in there against high AB foes.

Kukris are MUCH better IMO and well-worth the extra feat.  SSs only pierce, unfortunately '>

A friend asked me to build him a DevCrit kukrimaster who ended up critting half of the hits with keen kukris.  By throwing in a few levels of bard or rogue (or assassin), one can buff keen on them themself with scrolls, if they are available.  Otherwise, hope and pray that you will find a keen version for your WoC in the module.

The problem with building WMs, dual-wield or not, is that their real value is expressed in epic levels when they get the AB bumps each 3 levels. And their bonus feats are set up for DevCrit, for some reason.  Pre-epic, they are pretty much just a fighter that spent (maybe "wasted" is a more accurate descriptor) a lot of feats to little avail.  WM  should be renamed "Crit Master" because if they are not critting they are just run-of-the-mill.

And then there is the WM Scyther who can do the highest damage in the vanilla game (and can also use keen weaponry), again an epic monster.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 23 mars 2011 - 12:27 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               I don't remember seeing many good Kukris in the NWN OC, but I wouldn't go shortsword either (unless a dexxer, which I also wouldn't do in the OC).

I have one of my old WM builds here. Bear in mind I started this character fresh at level 15 to play HotU. This isn't what I would do if I was playing from the beginning. It is just too painful wasting all those feats just to get a one step improvement in your crticals 12 levels later.

It will be that much worse if you are dual wielding as you need 15 dex (means you are likely starting with less strength) and 3 more feats for dual wielding...

Human:
STR: 17 (25)
DEX: 13
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8

01: Rogue(1): Dodge, Expertise
02: Fighter(1): Mobility
03: Fighter(2): Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=18)
05: Fighter(4): Spring Attack
06: Fighter(5): Whirlwind Attack
07: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Greatsword
08: Weapon Master(2): STR+1, (STR=19)
09: Weapon Master(3): Cleave
10: Weapon Master(4): 
11: Weapon Master(5)
12: Weapon Master(6): STR+1, Improved Critical: Greatsword, (STR=20)
13: Weapon Master(7)
14: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
15: Fighter(6): Blind Fight, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
16: Fighter(7): STR+1, (STR=21)
17: Fighter(: Great Cleave
18: Rogue(3): Toughness, {Uncanny Dodge I}
19: Fighter(9): 
20: Rogue(4): STR+1,  , (STR=22)
21: Fighter(10): Great Strength I, Epic Weapon Focus: Greatsword, (STR=23)
22: Fighter(11): 
23: Fighter(12): Overwhelming Critical: Greatsword
24: Fighter(13): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=25)
25: Fighter(14): Devastating Critical: Greatsword
26: Rogue(5)
27: Fighter(15): Epic Weapon Specialization: Greatsword

edit: fixed ending str.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 23 mars 2011 - 08:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Not a bad build to get DevCrit stuffed in there for HotU, Lowlander.  Kudos! '>

You'll need that 28th level to get the Str to 26, however. 

Dropping starting Str to 16 will afford the Dex 15 for all the DW feats... but will need to drop at least a few of the rogue levels for more fighter bonus feats.  It'll get 1AB less per Str but should be able to get that back w/Epic Prowess if enough epic fighter levels (WM7 is all that is important in an under-30 build).  And probably need to pass on Cleave (2 feats).

Once the weapon focus is selected in the OC, that type of weapon will begin to spawn regularly.  All one really needs is a pair of Kukri +3, which will bypass 90% of  the DR skins (in the OC anyway).  The Messenger Blade drops (a keen kukri +2) so will be able to get to 50% crits. (Not sure how boss items are spawned in SoU or HotU , but it doesn't really matter in HotU, does it? '>)

I still dislike watching all those bogus feats fly by so am not a fan of WM by any stretch of the imagination.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               As I said. I wouldn't do this from low level. When I started playing this character he was already level 15, so he already had expanded critical from WM7, cleave, blindfight and Weap Spec. Great cleave is necessary for Dev Crit. If Dual Wielding I don't think it would be possible to get Dev Crit in HotU. Regardless, a dual wielding WM would be much more painful (add one bit more for an exotic weapon).

I played a large number of starting characters at the start of the NWN OC. What I found to be the most satisfying and effective and how I would start if doing it again, is similar to above. But I would take Power Attack, cleave first level and forget or postpone WM.

Greatsword and Cleave carves up enemies at low level in the OC. The is vastly more effective than dual wielding IMO (from my attempts). Having a big heavy hitting weapon stays an advantage all the way through as you will enounter many crit immunes and DR you can't get around. Then you are sitting there doing 2 hp damage with your funny looking daggers, while a GS is still getting 10 HP past the DR.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 24 mars 2011 - 12:10 .