Rogue/Fighter build?

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Maybe this example will light the bulb:

2 naked rogues, each w/mundane shortsword & weapon finesse feat:
(Note: identical feats were selected, all benign like Great Fort, Toughness, etc.)

Rogue S, Level 1
Str18-Dex10-Con10-Int10-Wis10-Cha14
AB +4, AC 10, Dmg 5-10

Rogue S, Level 16
Str22-Dex10-Con10-Int10-Wis10-Cha14
AB +18/+13/+8, AC 13, Dmg 7-12

Rogue D, Level 1
Str10-Dex18-Con10-Int10-Wis10-Cha14
AB 0, AC 14, Dmg 1-6

Rogue D, Level 16
Str10-Dex22-Con10-Int10-Wis10-Cha14
AB +18/+13/+8, AC 19, Dmg 1-6

Both are 3 APR at level 16.

So, in this example, the Str build does almost triple the damage of the Dex build (1-6 vs. 7-12, avg 3.5 vs. avg 9.5).
The Dex build yields +6 AC over the Str one.  Hence, avado's tough, 1-6 woodpecker effect is in play.

Clear yet?

@avado:  I'm guessing you are mixing up Cleave's +13 Str up with KD that has no prereq. At least, I have done that already. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 17 octobre 2010 - 07:56 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tyndrel]

               Zarhan, Each 2 points of str over 10 inficts an exta point of damage, dexers make up for that by hopefully inflicting more hits.

I'm surprised no one has yet suggested a Rogue, Fighter, Weapon Master build, you will always have the problem with crit/sneak immune enemies (as Avado said) but for a party toon that's not so bad. WM gives better crits and more of them, nice when added to backstabs, oops, I mean sneak attacks. The qualifying feats for WM are a pain but with fighter in the mix there are plenty of feats to go round.

This Elf is a favourite of mine,

S 14
D 18
C 12
W 10
I 14
C 8

1: Rog 1, Dodge (Take 4 points of intimidate)
2: Ftr 1, W.Finesse
3: Ftr 2, Exotic, W.F. Kukri
4: Ftr 3
5: Ftr 4, Expertise
6: Ftr 5, Mobility
7: Rog 2, [Rogue skill dump (Tumble, U.M.D., Rogue skills of choice)]
8: Ftr 6, Spring Attack
9: Ftr 7, Whirlwind Attack
10: WM 1
11: WM 2
12: Rog 3, Improved Crit Kukri, [Rogue skill dump]
13: WM 3
14: WM 4
15: WM 5, T.W.F.
16: WM 6
17: Rog 4 [Rogue skill dump]
18: WM 7, Ambidexterity
19: Ftr 8, Improved T.W.F.
20: Ftr 9

All ability goes into Dex.

In epic this character can take a few routes, higher rogue (13+) is recommended to get epic dodge. take a Ftr (or WM) level late for Discipline and a late rogue level for Tumble and top up chosen rogue skills.

This build has the same AB as a straight fighter but with sneak attacks and better crits, how much damage do you want? '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_the.gray.fox]

               Hello.

This is a Rogue I made.
Dual wield Short Swords.
She hits Base Attack 25 -- despite the multi-classing.
Do not worry about the Parry skill.
No matter what they say, the skill is very useful and can make you walk away from a tough fight nearly untouched.
Here:
(during some levels you are left with skill points unspent -- of course, save them for later)
(at the end of the build you shall have spent everything)

* Gender : Female
* Race : Human
* Voice : Seductress
* class : Rogue

STARTING FEATS:
* Dodge
* Toughness

STARTING ABILITIES:
* Strength = 12 | 1
* Dexterity = 18 | 4
* Constitution = 10 | 0
* Intelligence = 14 | 2
* Wisdom = 10 | 0
* Charisma = 8 | -1

STARTING SKILLS:
* Disable Trap : +4
* Hide : +4
* Listen : +4
* Move Silently : +4
* Open Lock : +4
* Parry : +4
* Search : +4
* Set Trap : +4
* Spot : +4
* Tumble : +4 (must stop at +40)
* Use Magic Device : +4 (must stop at +20)

LEVEL-UP PROGRESSION:
* Rogue (see starting skills)
01 : Dodge + Toughness
02 :
03 : Weapon Finesse
04 : [dex]
05 :
06 : Mobility
07 :

* Shadowdancer (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble)
08 : [dex]

* Fighter (Parry)
09 : Ambidexterity + Two-Weapon Fighting
10 : Knockdown
11 :

* Rogue (see starting skills)
12 : [dex] + Weapon Focus (short sword)
13 :
14 : Improved Evasion (bonus)
15 : Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16 : [dex]
17 : Crippring Strike (bonus)
18 : Improved Knockdown
19 :
20 : [dex] + Skill Mastery (bonus)
21 : Epic Weapon Focus (short sword)
22 :
23 : Defensive Roll (bonus)

* Fighter (Parry)
24 : [dex] + Weap. Spec. + Ep. Weap. Spec.

* Rogue (skil list)
25 :
26 :
27 : Epic Will
28 : [dex]
29 : Epic Dodge (bonus)
30 : Epic Fortitude
31 :
32 : [dex]
33 : Ep. Sk. Foc. (umd & disable trap) (bonus)
34 :
35 :
36 : [con] + Epic Prowess
37 : Ep. Sk. Foc. (parry) (bonus)
38 :
39 : Armor Skin
40 : [con]


-fox
               
               

               

                     Modifié par the.gray.fox, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               

Tyndrel wrote...

I'm surprised no one has yet suggested a Rogue, Fighter, Weapon Master build, you will always have the problem with crit/sneak immune enemies (as Avado said) but for a party toon that's not so bad. WM gives better crits and more of them, nice when added to backstabs, oops, I mean sneak attacks. The qualifying feats for WM are a pain but with fighter in the mix there are plenty of feats to go round.

I was going to suggest wm, as it is an obvious way to gain damage, but i had already suggested the rdd, i was hoping for another players input.

I know, on paper, it seems all good that a dexer would be just fine for primary damage dealer.  In play, without a sneak source it becomes like a woodpecker vs an oak tree at times. 

Having discussed hundreds of builds with people, i am getting the feeling that you arent settled on what you want.  You want the "iconic" rogue of some past story, but in nwn, it will be a rarity to get 2 players to agree on what an iconic rogue is!   You suggested you want dps build, then you are trying to make a dex build what you want.  This isnt Dragon age (where a dex dual dagger build IS a dps machine).  This is a turn based game and you have to play it as such, especially sub 20 where you dont have the epic ab to make things work well (you will have 1, 2 or 3 attacks per round MAX, and with dual, your ab will be less (read the two weapon fighting feat mechanics).    To try to clarify (without Hip's math), in a turn based game, FIRST you have to hit, and dex(finnese) and str will both do that equally well.  Second, each successful HIT must damage the target.  Str>dex (in a mundane environment).  If a target has 100 HP and you damage each successful hit with 10 or with 5 (str vs dex), you will take out the target in 10 or 20 rounds.  The dps in 10 rounds is greater than 20 rounds. 

I know you will do the dexer and that is great.  I was ONLY trying to help you get to what YOU wrote you wanted (a dps build). 

edit: the KD thing, i was looking at Dis check which is str based!  Yeah, im rusty on mechanics, but im as sharp as a tack on builds!  '>  thanks Anuis for keepin me up to date on that
               
               

               

                     Modifié par avado, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:46 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               Actually I'll try the str build. This changes things though. I would no longer need weapon finesse. How would it affect my dual-wielding and other skills though? I am thinking of starting at 16str and 16dex, but Would I be safe lowering dex to 14 or 12? I won't be full of HP like a fighter, so I can't take a ton of hits.



Also, I note you all leave charisma low. Do you not persuade people in the game, or are these strictly PvP/group builds?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               Charisma is ONLY for single player games where you talk to the computer.  In nwn, you cannot do everything well, though i have attempted to do just that many times!  Honestly, the last thing to be concerned with is persuading people!  Maybe thats a strategy, i dont know.  I do know that charisma only gimps your ability to defend or inflict damage, which is what a power gamer's main concern is (see how subtle the dark side sucks you in!  muhahahahahahahaha! )
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tyndrel]

               Ambidexterity requires a Dex of 15 and Improved two-weapon fighting requires Ambidexterity.

Charisma has its uses but is not really needed in this build, 2 points of Cha will give you a bonus 1 point of persuade skill, this is not really a good use of valuable ability points.

The Neverwinter Grimoire is a very useful source of information, essential reading for those interested in getting the most from a character.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Tyndrel, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               I may rethink the charisma stuff, but for now we do persuade people when cooping to get quests we may not normally get, such as the zoo quest in chapter 1 as a rogue. For now however, I believe that I came up with a build that may work. I am open to input, as always. This is at level 20 (R16/F4):

STR 20
DEX 15
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 10

Disable Trap 20
Discipline 25
Heal 14
Hide 25
Listen 26
Move Silently 25
Open Lock 21
Persuade 16
Search 24
Set Trap 19
Spot 26
Tumble 20

Toughness (at lv1)
Power Attack
Cleave
TWF
Ambidexterity
ITWF
Slippery Mind
Improved Evasion
Opportunist
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack

Thanks for all the information thus far!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Zarhan Fastfire, 18 octobre 2010 - 01:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eurypterid]

               Forget Opportunist and Slippery Mind. If you use traps, then get Skill Mastery, and definitely take Crippling Strike. I'd personally drop CHA to 8 (you can always boost your CHA with potions/items/spells when you need it) and raise CON to 12. Ditch Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack and make sure you grab Blind Fight and the KD feats.



I'd be tempted to go with a big old two-hander as well, but that's just my personal preference. For a peek at a STR-based Rogue character that I've played a few times, check out This One.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Zarhan Fastfire wrote...
Disable Trap 20
Discipline 25
Heal 14
Hide 25
Listen 26
Move Silently 25
Open Lock 21
Persuade 16
Search 24
Set Trap 19
Spot 26
Tumble 20

A rogue without maxed UMD?!?! tsk, tsk.

Don't forget about +10 lockpicks and the take 20 for non-combat trap/lock manipulating. That's 30 right there so dropping OL to 10-15 is plenty.  Besides that you'll also be adding your full Dex modifier barring the armor check penalty isn't limiting your skill use.

I like a high Disable Trap level to be able to recover all those deadly versions.  In this case, you will be adding your Int modifier to the skill check. 

If you are barely missing the check, try using a Cat's Grace potion (or two or three) for all the dex skills and Fox's Cunning for the Int ones.

Search is an odd skill IMO.  Sometimes your PC just needs to stand there until it wins the check (i.e. even with a high skill level you can keep rolling 1's every round).  Here is one case where an Elf gains a big advantage without needing to enter Detect mode for an active check (though elves also need good dice rolls).

All-in-all a decent well-rounded skill spread! '>

Edit: Oh, I am another KD/IKD fanatic.  Wouldn't wander into a pack of mages without it!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

Zarhan Fastfire wrote...
Disable Trap 20
Discipline 25
Heal 14
Hide 25
Listen 26
Move Silently 25
Open Lock 21
Persuade 16
Search 24
Set Trap 19
Spot 26
Tumble 20

I think, if you added up all the skills i have used in ALL my builds i have ever played (since 2004), i dont think i have used that many skills.. EVER!  WOW!  Concentration may be worth it (drop Heal for it) so that a stray Taunt wont affect you. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               One can't live without KD & IKD. He dies.

The same goes for Concentration. They're connected.

No expert here but a still living player.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_the.gray.fox]

               Hello.

Rogues (especially those with Shadowdancer class) are supposed to strike first, fast, and very hard.
"Surprise" is their greatest asset.

And rogues (above all other classes) are not meant to go solo against a mob of foes. Especially when each embodies a nemesis of the class (Immunity to Critical Hits and True Seeing come to mind). Not even if they can transform the battle-field into a mine-field before turning hostile.

So... I would not worry too much about giving a Rogue every combat feat & skill that is usually found on more combat-oriented classes (like the Fighter). Frontal assault and dire combat situations are "out of character" for rogues: when things get sticky, or menace to be, they change plans and walk away quietly (for what is possible).

My two cents.

-fox
               
               

               

                     Modifié par the.gray.fox, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               Guess I'm used to the traditional rogue portrayed in most games. The one that gets close, decimates the tough guy, then lays waste to the weak followers. I love my combat rogue in WoW for that reason. I think I'll try a custom build favoring strength, dex, and int for now and post the results. I'll also pass on "set trap" and just not bother with traps. I find I only use them to amuse myself anyway, setting them up in a row, then dragging a crowd across them. Makes me laugh, but not very useful!