Suggestions on forum names - your help is appreciated!

[Legacy_B_Harrison]

               Sorry Olivier, I think you might've misunderstood my post a little (or more likely, I didn't make myself particularly clear); I meant that since I'm not worried about the exact forum layout you/we decide to request of BioWare, you needn't consider my misgivings about the proposed CC forum changes as opposition or a negative vote.

You're not the only one that cares, but I (and others?) can probably compromise enough to go along with whatever the person doing the organising (you) decides on, as long as we can all agree that it's a general improvement on the current forum.

But as long as we're still discussing it...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Helekanalaith wrote...
Add to that the (forgotten) Dungeon Masters
category and we should have this:

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Singleplayer Modules
NWN Multiplayer Modules and Persistent
Worlds (Ye New Tavern)
NWN Dungeon Master's Realm
NWN Server Admin
NWN Toolset and Scripting
NWN Custom Content and Tools
Development
NWN
Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

+1

+1
               
               

               

                     Modifié par B_Harrison, 23 juillet 2010 - 08:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               Okay, I got it now, duh.
Thanks for the clarification, Ben. :happy:

Helekanalaith's suggestion seems to catch on and unless someone is going to protest about the combination of Toolset and Scripting I'd have only two minor proposals for modification that could be considered:

1. Is the change from "Official Campaigns" to "Official Modules" intentional? I like "Official Campaigns" a little better since in-game NWN distinguishes between "Official Campaign" and "Modules", too, when you start a new game. Campaigns sounds even more official, while a distinction between "Official Modules" and "Modules" makes the community modules look bad in my eyes, like something inofficial in the sense of being near illegitimate (or like a distinction between "Real Modules" and ... er... the other "Modules". Probably just another of my quibbles though.


2. I'd keep the "Modules" out of "Multiplayer Modules" because IMO "Ye New Tavern" should really be about finding players and DMs, not necessarily about modules. Like Shia pointed out and Andarian partially agreed to, the occasional Multiplayer module could still be discussed in SP if it's one of the modules that allow for single play, too. So personally, I'd second Andarians distinction between Modules and Socializing.

Whatever we decide on is fine with me though.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ElgarL]

               

B_Harrison wrote...

Just to be clear, what I agreed with/seconded was Helekanalaith's list (which I think he revised later in the thread):

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Modules
NWN Persistent Worlds
NWN Server Admin
NWN Guilds
NWN Builders: Toolset
NWN Builders: Scripting
NWN Builders: Custom Content
NWN Builders: Tools and Plugins
NWN Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

I'm not sure I like the idea of the CC forum (the only one I cared about) becoming a 3rd party tools forum and a CEP forum. I'm really not concerned either way, though, so there's no need to include my name in any agreement/opposition when you send it BioWare's way.

I like the above set. The Builders makes it stand out easily for us idiot coders who get lost at the first include we see.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               OK lets try a different approach here. Lets try actual usage over emotional attachment. Some of us have been here over a week now, so the number of topics should start to tell us which headings are healthy and which are underused. I'll try this with an arbitrary cut-off of 10 topics and see how we go.

NwN 1 General Discussion Forum (No Spoilers Allowed) - is quite healthy with 33 topics already and definitely deserves to stay.

NwN 1 Official Campaign (Spoilers Warning)  - has only 2,
NwN 1 Shadows of Undrentide Official Campaign (Spoilers Warning) - has only 1 and
NwN 1 Hordes of the Underdark Official Campaign (Spoilers Warning) - has 6. Or altogether all three have less than 10 between them and should be combined.

NwN 1 Modules - Again quite healthy with 12 and so should stay.
NwN 1 Guilds and Registry - Ye Olde Tavern - Also deserves its place having 13.

NwN 1 Builders - Toolset - This is the real surprise for me as so far it only has 5 topics meaning that it is ripe for combining with another.

NwN 1 Builders - Scripting - is in rude health with 29 topics and should stay.
NwN 1 Custom Content and Community Expansion Pack - So far has 25 of which 4 are for CEP alone and someone asked for a separate CEP thread which by these figures is not viable. So my conclusion is that this should stay as it is.

NwN 1 Dungeon Masters Realm - is another one that is ripe for combining only having 2 topics.

NwN 1 Persistent Worlds & Multiplayer - Yet another very active set of threads with 29 topics. Should stay.

NwN 1 Tools and Plugin Developers - This has only 2 topics and one of those is a question about should there be a separate category for it. Let's face it the original on the old boards had very little traffic and before pkpeachykeen's NWShader nwn didn't have any plug-ins anyway. Nope this one is also ripe for combining.

NwN 1 Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions) - The last in the list and healthy enough with 15 topics. Should stay as it is.

So where does this leave us? Well we have 7 forums that are quite healthy and should remain largely unchanged apart from (in my opinion) some of the names.

NwN 1 General Discussion Forum (No Spoilers Allowed)
NwN 1 Modules
NwN 1 Guilds and Registry
NwN 1 Builders - Scripting
NwN 1 Custom Content and Community Expansion Pack
NwN 1 Persistant Worlds & Multiplayer
NwN 1 Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

So what of the rest? Well I think that the three forums dedicated to the official campaigns should be combined into 1 possibly with a FAQ for each in this new forum. NwN 1 Builders - Toolset is more problematic because at times this used to get quite busy on the old bioboards. If it was to be combined then it would have to be with the scripting forum as a lot of questions in the latter stages on the old boards were to do with scripting. On balance I would leave it as a separate entity for now only combining it if traffic doesn't pick up. Of the remaining 2 forums I'll deal with NwN 1 Tools and Plugin Developers first. As there is (so far) only one plug-in for nwn I'd move nwshader back to where its thread's previous home was on the old boards and that was the general discussion forum. Or there is an alternative solution that I will discuss in a moment. As the tools can be mostly split between ones to aid in custom content creation and ones to aid with for multiplayer/pw I'd let these migrate to their natural homes.

So what about new forums. I propose just 1 new one. This being NWN Dungeon Masters and Server Admin. My second proposal is to expand the remit of the NwN 1 Builders - Toolset forum to include general user generated content discussion. This way there would be increased traffic for the forum and a place to discuss those aspects of building that don't naturally fall into the current three forums and a place for people to place requests whether they're builders or not. It would also give a natural home NWShader.

I'll now list what I think the nwn forums should look like if my changes were accepted. I will list them with any name changes I think appropriate and explain these changes after the list.

NwN 1 General Discussion Forum (No Spoilers Allowed)
NwN 1 Official Campaigns (NwN, SoU, HotU - Spoilers Warning)
NwN 1 Modules Excluding Persistent Worlds
NwN 1 Guilds and Registry
NwN 1 Builders - Toolset & General
NwN 1 Builders - Scripting
NwN 1 Custom Content Including Community Expansion Pack
NwN 1 Persistent Worlds & Multiplayer
NWN 1 Dungeon Masters & Server Admin
NwN 1 Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

The first name change that needs a little explanation is for the Modules forum. This is simply a clarification and not an attack on pw's. The next name change is for the custom content forums. Currently the name of this suggests that CEP is something totally separate from all other forms of user generated content because it says and CEP. My proposed name change removes this myth. What about the "NwN 1" as opposed to "NwN"? Aw, come on guys we've got to let the staff on these boards feel good about something and anyway we can feel smug because we know the real name don't we?'>

So there you have it. In normal circumstances I would have said my 2 cents worth but looking at the amount I've typed it's more like my $50's worth. 

TR

 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 23 juillet 2010 - 10:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               What the statistics don't take into account though is that the majority of the posts in "Guilds and Registry" are of the same nature as and in part even identical with the posts in "Persistent Worlds & Multiplayer". Of the 13 posts in "Guild & Registry" only 2-4 (depending on your definition) are about actual guilds, the rest is the same PW advertising that can be found in "PW & MP".
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               Criticism accepted. I didn't actually look inside that particular forum, I just went by the front page. So what do you think about my naming suggestions and the reasoning about them?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Drewskie]

               

Tarot Redhand wrote...

Criticism accepted. I didn't actually look inside that particular forum, I just went by the front page. So what do you think about my naming suggestions and the reasoning about them?

 

Just a couple more comments, even though the structure is unlikely to ever change.  The spoiler sections can be combined since, yes, disparately they have few topics, and folks looking for hints are unlikely to get them as potential helpers are spread out over three boards.   Is a veteran player more likely to visit a single board or multiple boards, simply to help out a newbie?  I think the numbers of people crawling through the campaigns(and those willing to help) at this point is small enough that combining these would be beneficial.

Tools and plugins never worked very well as they always involved projects that fit better in more specific forums...  DMFI --> dm's realm,  NWNx databases --> server admin,  NWNmax --->custom content, lilac's script generator---> scripting.   I can't think of a tool or plugin that fits better in a generic plugin forum than in some more specific forum.

But, to me,  toolset and scripting are the most important merger...  They are so closely related.  You seldom do one for long without thinking of the other. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

Tarot Redhand wrote...

Criticism accepted. I didn't actually look inside that particular forum, I just went by the front page. So what do you think about my naming suggestions and the reasoning about them?

If we decide to mention CEP in the name of the CC forum (the current tendency seems to be to leave it out of the name), I think you're absolutely right. "Incl. CEP" would be more correct than "and CEP" , it would look more natural and less like they were only put into the same forum to save space although they're actually two different things - which they aren't. As a sidenote if we mention CEP, IMO it should also be called "CEP" or "Community Expansion Pack (CEP)"  instead of just "Community Expansion Pack" since the abbreviation is so common that people will recognize it even if they don't know the meaning. BTW, if we just look at activity, CEP might actually deserve its own forum; then again newer community expansions like D20 and ProjectQ don't have their own forum on the BioWare boards either, so personally I second the suggestion to give CEP some space in the CC forum to link to their external forum, like all the other big CC projects do it. That might also mean leaving it out of the forum name though (otherwise we could also name it "CC incl. CEP and D20 and CTP and ProjectQ" and so on and so on. CEP is very popular, perhaps the most known community expansion but it isn't the only one anymore as in the early days).

As for "Modules excluding PWs", that seems to be a common denominator of what a lot of community members perceive that forum is for and the name expresses that precisely. On the other hand, even though the name is just meant as descriptive, I fear some people might take offense nevertheless and I'm not sure when there already is another forum that's clearly meant for PWs if it's necessary to stress that "Modules" isn't.

It's still open for discussion if we should combine Toolset and Scripting; we probably don't need to combine them to save space, so the reason to do it would be if builders think it would benefit the discussions there.

Drewskie also made some good points. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 24 juillet 2010 - 01:56 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Would it be easier to just name it Community made Custom Content? that way is seems rather clear that anything not made by Bio-Ware, belongs in it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               NwN General Discussion Forum (No Spoilers Allowed)
NwN Official Campaigns (NwN, SoU, HotU, Premium Modules - Spoilers Warning)
NwN Persistent Worlds & Multiplayer only modules
NwN Modules
NwN Community Custom Content
NwN Guilds and Registry
NwN Builders - Toolset & General
NwN Builders - Scripting
NWN Dungeon Masters & Server Admin
NwN Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

I changed a bit of the wording so there's no 'exclusion' and moved PWs up the list so that PW people see that forum before the module one and hopefully don't use both for advertising. I've added 'premium modules' to the offical campaigns forum for clarity. I've left scripting and toolset seperate for now as they are pretty busy forums generally, but I have no preference either way.

Have fun '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 25 juillet 2010 - 10:21 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               Having thought a little more about what we could call the result of merging the toolset and scripting forums I have a suggestion only in the case this happens. Also if they do merge then I would rename the modules forum. My suggestions are:



NwN Modules - Announcements & Players

NwN Modules - Builders



I wonder if anyone else has any suggestions?



TR
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               Alright, I'll try to make another effort to coordinate this.

We already have a lot of good suggestions and different sets of forum names but in order to determine which are the most popular choices I'd kindly ask you now not to offer any alternative sets anymore but instead to take the following as a base for discussion, explicitly refer to it and comment on it and make a strong case for any modification of it you think absolutely necessary. Below the proposed set you'll find some explanations and further food for thought I'd be interested to hear your opinions on. In any case, let's try to reach a good compromise now.
'> 

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Campaigns (NWN, SoU, HotU - Spoilers Warning)
NWN Persistent Worlds, Guilds & Multiplayer: Ye Olde Tavern
NWN Modules
NWN Builders: Toolset
NWN Builders: Scripting
NWN Custom Content (incl. CEP)
NWN Dungeon Master's Realm
NWN Server Admin
NWN Technical Support (self-help for all versions and expansions)


- Official Campaigns: These days we don't get as much new players as we used to and consequently there aren't that much posts in the OC forums anymore. We haven't given up hope and we welcome all new players, they're just more likely to find help with the OCs if veterans only have to scan one forum instead of three.

- Ye Olde Tavern: PWs, Guilds and MP sessions are about socializing and finding people to play with, so that's the common denominator for this forum. The "Tavern" in the name reflects that and its familiar ring ensures that those who are accustomed to the legacy forums instantly find the right place to post their announcements in.

- Modules: Kept as is, with hopes that the more explicit forum name for PW and MP directly above it will now render unneccessary any addition of "Single Player" or "excluding/except for PWs" in this forum name (so we don't have to deal with the SP/MP discussion or complicated forum names).

- Toolset and Scripting: There were suggestions of merging both of these forums because they're closely related. Not sure yet if these suggestions would get a majority among builders here. Another point to discuss is whether to keep the "Builders:" tag or not and if we decide to keep it, if other forums should get similar tags (e.g. "Players:"). It might cause new problems though (as "Modules" for example is for both players and builders). And does "Custom Content" belong to the "Builders:" category, too, or not?

- As Tarot Redhand pointed out, CEP *is* nothing but custom content, too. But since CEP was explicitly added to the title by Chris Priestley (and CEP?), I say let's go for the compromise and make it "incl. CEP" instead. The best way for CEP to handle it IMO would be to keep their own thread about updates in the CC forum but direct any CEP specific questions to their own forum outside of BSN, the same way that other community projects handle it as well. But that's not for us to discuss here.

- Tools and Plugin Developers was left out, as Drewskie rightfully pointed out that they usually involve projects that fit better in more specific forums (e.g. DMFI --> dm's realm,  NWNx databases --> server admin,  NWNmax --->custom content, lilac's script generator---> scripting).

- Server Admin was added again. There were some suggestions to merge it with "DM's Realm" but different opinions on it. On the one hand they're completely different topics, on the other hand the rare use of both of these forums and the connection between server administrators and DMs could be an argument for it.

- Another suggestion (by SHOVA) was to add a "Players Corner" forum specifically for builds & strategy discussion. Currently this is part of "General Discussion" - do others agree that we would be better off if strategy discussions had their own forum?

- I noticed that the forums of the newer games here actually have descriptions explaining what they are for while the ones that migrated from the legacy forums only have titles, no explanations. I don't know if this was done on purpose or if it's just due to improvisation, a lack of time on BioWare's side and whether there's a chance they'd actually welcome it if we'd offer them short explanations for our forums, too.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 13 août 2010 - 12:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               I think you've made a fantastic effort to incorporate most of the ideas suggested so far Oliver. '>

It has my vote '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 13 août 2010 - 12:29 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               Looks fine to me. As far as descriptions go, I think they made the assumption that because they believe nwn is a "legacy" game (NAFAIC when you can go to your local supermarket and buy it brand new in the box) they don't have to, because everybody knows what they mean.Having looked again at the numbers using the various forums I still find it puzzling why there are so few topics in the toolset forum. I'm sure it was busyer than that on the old forums. Cest la vie.



Anyway, Olivier I think that list looks good.



TR
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               Thanks, Shia Luck and Tarot Redhand! Does anyone else have an opinion on this?