Creative Building

[Legacy_YeOlde]

               I have been thinking about constructing a city, and how you might approach the layout of the city. I want your opinion on what layout you think are the best.

I have seen many cities/towns which use the "realistic" area-to-area method. Like, you take the city, then you just divide it into several parts/areas and make transitions between. I always get the feeling that those cities are generally smaller than the map with many unnecessary buildings. But in the contrary, you get many alleys and streets for all different purposes.

Then we have those cities that only focus on important areas, like Denerim in Dragon Age. For me, I got the feeling that the city is very large and leave much to my imagination...

What do you think. Are there other ways to make a layout of a city? What layout do you think is sufficient. Is it boring/bad to use the second method (Denerim) kind of map?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par YeOlde, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               The second method enables you to take the most advantage of the different city tilesets available. Design the city by districts, and each district can be a different area.

Think of it less as designing a city, but more as designing a complex game environment. You will have many NPCs doing civilized things which if you have too many in a single area will hamper performance. So you will need smallish areas. And it would work better if most of the NPCs in the area have everything they need in the area. Easier not to have to track an NPC across multiple areas as you direct them in their daily routine. Just keep them in the same area.

All that said... designing a city is VERY hard. You've got your work cut out for you. Thankfully Zwerkules has made a beautiful tileset to do it with.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <using his lenses...>

Way back when, I proposed a scheme I called the "Variable-density grid". The basic idea was to lay out the whole region on a grid... and then build the densest concentration of areas around the points of interest. Sort of a hybrid between the two systems you mentioned above.

The areas maintain a geographic topology that allows you to easily upgrade the content (add more areas) in between the established areas when you have the resources to make that feasible.

In the mean <lean> time, the vacant areas between are "assumed" and the first areas focus on what is needed first.

Ex. You might have a slum district with the main feature being the HQ of the thieve's guild. On the first pass, the HQ and its immediate 'hood are built.  To the east is the market plaza and to the south is "Rich Country".

Later on, you develop some needed adjuncts to the slum district and connect them to the HQ, adjusting transitions.

That all being said, I *strongly* encourage you to layout the city as completely as possible on paper, first. Personally, I tend to base my maps on historical towns and old maps.  I also * heartily*  recommend visiting the Secret Library of S. John Ross, especially Medieval Demographics Made Easy .

<...to make things look small and large>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Rolo, it appears that your system is a system of design, rather than one scripted in the toolset. It appears that you are talking about planning in your head a larger set of areas on a grid, but in the toolset only building certain areas. Is that correct?

We did something like that in Vives. Much of the PW existed only on paper and in stories on the forum but builders would fill in the areas from time to time. BUT this did not happen in a grid which enabled enormous flexibility.

For example there was always an assumed large slum between the docks in Port Royale and the Acquinas Coast. For many years it was never created, but many PCs claimed to come from the Port Royale slums. And one PC ruled them as a "Don". Then a builder finally created the slums, and readjusted all the territory around it.

The advantage of this is that once you build two adjacent areas you need not think of them as physically fixed in place. If you have a territory between them you can suggest it in game, but not actually build it right away. Then when it is built it doesn't mess up anyone's conception of the world.

In essence you draw a map then place a number of points on it. Each of these points is an Area as NWN understands it. The relationship between the points ont eh map is important so you should take some care in thinking about that. For a city these would be points of interest that you want to develop. Then you've got the as yet unbuilt territory between the points perhaps with a few names loosely set down for future development. Then when you get excited about these you can place a new point on the map and design that as well.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <nods...>

Yes, though laying it out on a grid makes some things easier (especially if a person were planning to get his Regional system working to the point it accepts bitmaps for input :-P).

But the main point was to have the *unbuilt* areas exist somewhere, even if it's only in stories/rumors, for consistency's sake.

In reference to the OP: I do *not* recommend laying out the city 1:1, areas contiguous. Nor do I recommend creating a few "showcase" areas and leaving no, um, "ambient" areas for exploration.

Get a good idea of the city in your own head. Lay out as much as you can on paper.
Make sure all builders understand the layout.
Begin building areas on a priority basis:
1) Areas needed for character progression
2) Areas needed for major plot-lines
3) Areas needed for minor plot-lines
4) Areas needed for exploration & "flavor"

I put character progression first because, though I revere story and RP, I do not believe you can hold anyone's interest if they can not advance their character, regardless of plot. So, the areas you'll need must fulfill at least the first two requirements before it is playable.

As in all my posts, this is an opinion and not meant to flame anyone :-)

<...in agreement>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Oh of course. I may be demonstrative and provide reasons for my opinion, but I'm not gonna start fighting over it as if opinions are territory.

Anyway... thats interesting. You are right that a grid does make it easier for many systems.

The seamless area transition system for example likes areas laid out on a grid and tagged accordingly. And this enables one to create "maps" that can tell the player how close they are to something and where they need to travel to get to their destination.

I think one downside to this however is that you sacrifice flexibility because it is very difficult to change an area's coordinates once they are established.

I'm still on the fence on which to use in Arnheim. At present I am using named regions whihc are then divided into a grid of areas. Since I only have one region, this enables me theoretically to have an alternate plane for the same region as well with a 1:1 match up. So the way it works is <region tag>+<X Y coordinates in grid>. One tag can be "ethereal.adermoer" the other can be "adermoer". The former is the ethereal plane the later the prime. Anyway.... I'm going off the reservation here.

Sorry OP!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <looking a little guilty...>

This isn't entirely OT, as we are discussing  precisely *how* to design...

henesua wrote...
Anyway... thats interesting. You are right that a grid does make it easier for many systems.

But it's important to not make it *mandatory*...

The seamless area transition system for example likes areas laid out on a grid and tagged accordingly. And this enables one to create "maps" that can tell the player how close they are to something and where they need to travel to get to their destination.

I think one downside to this however is that you sacrifice flexibility because it is very difficult to change an area's coordinates once they are established.

Exactly! That's what my Regional system is designed to avoid. 
1) It's not a 1:1 grid system.  It's a *defined* topology (currently defined in the 
regnode_< name of region >.2da ). The possible transitions from any given node are stored in the regnode_ definition. They can be adjusted once, there, instead of editing oodles of WPs and Triggers... This includes *vertical* links, incidently, that Cestus will be using for the dwarven citadel of Fireholt and the Underways region.
2) It's flexible in that "template" nodes (drawn from a pool of generic-but-classed areas) can be replaced when feasible with crafted areas without disturbing the weave of the region. 
3) It's consistent in that the path and landmarks to any given area remain the same (*not* random).
4) It lends itself to a certain "traveling" map idea (a hybrid of DoD and Tarot's map-tiles) I have that builds a dynamic "worldmap" type area based on the areas (drawn from the region definition in regnode_).
5) It lends itself to the Travel Builder system of assigning travel times and encounter probabilities between nodes.
6) It lends itself to "shortcuts"... when you reach an area edge you have a choice of transitioning directly to the next node or calling up the traveling map of the region and jumping (with appropriate travel times) to any node you've already travelled.

<you're ranting, wizard> Heh. Right, back to designing cities...

I'm still on the fence on which to use in Arnheim. At present I am using named regions whihc are then divided into a grid of areas. Since I only have one region, this enables me theoretically to have an alternate plane for the same region as well with a 1:1 match up. So the way it works is <region tag>+<X Y coordinates in grid>. One tag can be "ethereal.adermoer" the other can be "adermoer". The former is the ethereal plane the later the prime.

I'll have 4 versions of the entire mod, with the addition/location of seasonal haks being the primary difference. In addition, I'll have alternate states of many areas (much like your ethereal state).  There's a lot of duplication there (on the surface), but the completely different textures/sounds/atmosphere pretty much require it. 

But, once again, it comes down to planning it out somewhere and then working from that "design document", even if it only exists in your head.  The more developed your design -*before* you lay one tile! - The easier and more consistent your design will be.

But developing quality areas in the toolset is not quick, which is why I really promote putting it on paper and drawing from historical sources.

And, yes, putting it in a grid. At least to start :-)
You can go off the rails anytime when you are living and breathing the place.
Until then, make a plan. 

Anyway.... I'm going off the reservation here.

Sorry OP!

Er, um, me too :-)

<...but that's nothing new>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:56 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_YeOlde]

               Don't be sorry. I follow this conversation with interest. Thank you for the answers - both of you. I have already started to design the city (some weeks ago) using Zwerkules Medieval tileset. And currently, I have a mix of what I suggested above. But I have found myself to enjoy the more "focused" areas more. I share the same priorities when building. Keeping the character and the character progression in mind, along with plots, etc.

Anyway... I think I shall rebuild some areas now. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Vivienne L]

               Take a look at the way Fester Pot designed Almraiven. It gives you the feeling that you are in a heavily populated and bustling city and you only see parts of the city at a time!
I'm trying to build a module with cities, towns, countryside etc.. and am trying to find a balance between empty looking towns and the bustling city which Fester Pot built but I know I'm not as talented and I'm trying to remember I'm doing this for fun first and foremost!  We all inspire each other here!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par vivienne.l, 24 mars 2012 - 10:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <eyes dancing...>

Holy moly! How did I miss this gem? Just dipped my toe in it, but FP this is sweet design =)

Thanks V!

<...with delight>