What size should FR cities be?

[Legacy_Tonden_Ockay]

               

Question?

 

What size should Forgotten Realms cities be?

 

I have worked on making one of these cities.

 

Bulder's Gate

 

 

It got to be very large and its still far smaller than it is in PnP forgotten realms.

 

I have worked on making cities that were 9 to 11 8x8 areas and they are just too big imo. While at the same time I have worked on making cities that were one area 14x14 and seemed to be a good size. But most people will look at a city like that and say "this is too small to be city XXXX"

 

I idea of making the Sword Coast sounds nice. However the size of those cities are very large. Making cities that big in NWN is not only lots and lots of work, but also kind of pointless. There really isn't any real reason to make cities that big in NWN. That said what size do all of you module and PW server builders feel these cities should be?

 

I would love to hear your (the community) thoughts on making (Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Bulder's Gate, and so on) these cities.

 

 

 

 

 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               It's not size, it's density of things to do. You could theoretically make a 1:1 scale map, but it would be boring because the vast majority of it would be buildings you'd never go into. You can also simulate a larger city size by keeping things to one district or ward and put the rest in as background images etc. If you play enough games, there is a certain density of points of interest, whether it's dungeons on an overworld map or shops in a city. Nwn2 Storm of Zehir failed to convey a sense of it's two cities sizes because they were too dense, every single building was important for something.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Mad Poet]

               

This is a very a subjective question.

 

I know quite a few people have built the FR cities by finding the actual maps from FR source material and trying to replicate them as close as possible. Cutting the areas up as they need to. I was involved with making a version of Luskan once and that's exactly what I did. However for Avernostra more than half the areas in the server are simply city areas, most of the server is the metropolis of the city itself.

 

I think for a really big FR metropolis like Waterdeep it would be good to kind of section off important areas of the city and build those, rather than every single area of the city itself. No need to make players walk through snaking empty areas. Make a method that allows players to travel between sections without needing to walk transition to transition. I did the same for my own server and it keeps the total size down, while having the illusion of a gigantic city in tact. 

 

Smaller, but still big cities like Neverwinter or Calimport or such you could very well map entirely... though likely you will have to be a bit liberal in what goes where and how much area between and such. Break it up over 4-6 areas.

 

Baldur's Gate is a pretty sizable city, though not as large as Neverwinter or Calimport I believe. You could probably get away with 2, 3, or 4.

 

For ones the size like Nesme you could probably get away with doing only 1 area.

 

Here... I did this quick mockup of an example. Basically this separates BG into four 'Districts' for you. You can do similar things for other cities. Sure it doesn't match 100%, but it works.

 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               

Friends,

I like to think it much depends on what you wish to DO in / with the city. IMHO, most 'NWN cities' I've seen are tiny, built with vignettes; only building a few shops, taverns, guildhalls and 'pretending there is more you just cannot go there'. This is OK, if the goal is to provide essential provisioning, rest and little else. On the other hand _if_ your PC is a bard, rogue or assassin or other 'urbanophile' - such small places afford nowhere to hide (the rogue that goes 'underground' in such places may be unpleasantly surprised to find a single party can cover a city searching for a rogue there is no realism there). Yes, a big city is a LOAD of work - I'm _still_ building out a large city in our server - presently it is comprised of outdoor 16x16 areas 35 if you count the city walls, totaling 20 Areas within the city walls. There are about 10 inns in the city, and about 50 merchants. Public transit in the form of a 'magic carpet' depot makes getting around the city easy cheap and fast, and the city is a nexus of ship and wagon-borne travel too. There are about 15 easy to access sewer Areas, and about 100 total sewer Areas in total. A wily rogue could travel from one end of the city to the other by any of several routes NOT on the surface, if willing to hazard the risks. There are numerous defensive structures around the city, many guard barracks and even supply/transit tunnels that are 'secret' for the guard use. It is still a work-in-progress; we are still rolling out features like usable windows and a new merchant system, but the size, large as it is, can be a great boon to a server. Our DMs have a huge range of options when they want to set some event or other 'in the city', and a well-established theives guild (whose HQ includes an 80 Area training maze) makes the place RIPE for all sorts of intrigues. The city features a crafting college, arena, palace, and even some hidden undead. The city even has an extensive crypts (about 25 Areas).

 

Basically, what I'd like to communicate here is, there is no such thing as 'too big' - we run lag free, crash free with 1337+ areas in the module too. Big is good as long as you are willing to make the spaces you build worthwhile. As a general rule, I try to have at least two purposes for any given Area, but I do make some exceptions in that we need some spaces that are generic households (not every house needs to have a questgiving NPC ready to award hundreds of gold to needy PCs). That said, even some of the peasant homes have some treasure hidden (a few concealed coins or a lost very minor magic), but sometimes the most important thing about a place is what can be spied upon from the windows, balconies or gardens.

 

Now, the city I describe above is the 'main city' built in a contiguous fashion where all the Areas meet edge-to-edge. Other cities in the server are built in a more typical vignette style and are much abbreviated 'cities' set in far locations - in such places all that is needed was a few patron/questgivers, a couple taverns/inns and a few commoner houses, with hints of an overall city layout and 'more beyond'. The 'main city' for the server was intended to provide a serious location for rogue activities, the rest, are much more peripheral to the server and the campaigns run by our DMs.

 

I like to give the DMs "room to move". I encourage larger cities in all modules, more Areas make the place seem real, too few make the suspension of disbelieve harder than it needs to be. Largeness is central to the idea of a city, variety within that largeness can help make an urban landscape come to life.

 

Be well. Game on.

GM_ODA

 

96.31.77.127

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Mad Poet]

               

Basically, what I'd like to communicate here is, there is no such thing as 'too big' - we run lag free, crash free with 1337+ areas in the module too. Big is good as long as you are willing to make the spaces you build worthwhile. As a general rule, I try to have at least two purposes for any given Area, but I do make some exceptions in that we need some spaces that are generic households (not every house needs to have a quest giving NPC ready to award hundreds of gold to needy PCs). That said, even some of the peasant homes have some treasure hidden (a few concealed coins or a lost very minor magic), but sometimes the most important thing about a place is what can be spied upon from the windows, balconies or gardens.

 

Agreed. There isn't an upper limit at all. Though not everyone wants to cover every square inch of a city. I just use the above examples as my 'Rule of Thumb', and they have worked well for me in the past. Like I said Avernostra is literally 1/2 my areas in my server. Somewhere around 50 right now just compromising about 6 districts, and that's just exterior. Go for whatever feels right.