My Bard just made lv5. Should I give him RDD levels? If so how many?
My Bard just made lv5. Should I give him RDD levels? If so how many?
The answer to this question really depends on just what kind of character you want to play. RDD is a strong class and it can certainly be worth taking levels in it, but doing so will fundamentally alter the function and appropriate playstyle for you character, since RDD bonuses are most useful to warrior-types and not especially so to casters.
The function of a bard qua bard is a party support caster, buffing himself and allies with Bard Song, degrading the effectiveness of enemies with Curse Song, and casting primarily buffing spells. If that is what you want to play, adding RDD levels will do more harm than good, as that will decrease the effectiveness of your Song and spells.
On the other hand, Bard is also a very flexible class, that can be made to serve many other roles with the right multi-classing. If you do add RDD levels, you should also take some levels in Fighter (or possibly another warrior class) as well, and start playing as a warrior, relying on your Song and spells for a little extra buffing. That is the only way to get the full benefits of that class. You want to take either 4 RDD levels (for some meaningful bonuses that do not require too much of an investment in the class) or 10 levels for the full strength bonus. Any number of levels in RDD other than 4 or 10 will be a waste, outside of exceptional cases.
@rogueknight333. After thinking over what you said, this Bard will NOT take any RDD levels because he is not set up as a fighter type. My next one will be.
@rogueknight333. After thinking over what you said, this Bard will NOT take any RDD levels because he is not set up as a fighter type. My next one will be.
You'll love it. You can really create quite the beast given all the ability points from RDD. You don't have to dump a ton of STR into your character right away. I never exceed the point where they cost more than 1 point per point because I know I will be getting plenty as the character advances.
If you would have gone with Red Dragon Disciple at 6th level, that would have given you two levels in a row where your BAB does not advance. That can be painful at lower levels, where your options to make it up via magical items/spells/abilites are limited.
It is useful to plan your level choices in advance, to take classes in groupings that give you the most immediate benefit.
If you advanced to Bard 8, you would maximize your BAB progression, and get an extra +1 to attack with your Bard Song (assuming you had the combination of Charisma bonus/magical items to boost your Perform skill to 15). That eases the progression to take Red Dragon Disciple at level 9.
Your first level of Red Dragon Disciple gets you the +1 AC bonus, and your second level of Red Dragon Disciple gets you +2 Strength (adding to your attack and damage bonus in melee). So there is very good reason to take at least 2 levels of Red Dragon Disciple in a row.
Whether you go back to a few Bard levels next or stick with Red Dragon Disciple levels depends on what you want most.
The third level of Red Dragon Disciple gets you breath weapon (2d10 once per day is not really a huge deal for an 11th level character. But the fourth level gets you another +2 Strength. Your BAB advances +1 at with each of the third and fourth levels. Then the fifth level of Red Dragon Disciple gets you another +1 to AC.
On the other hand, you may have neglected some Bard class skills not available to Red Dragon Disciple. (Mostly stealth skills- Tumble and Use Magical Device are most useful in multiples of 5, and you can't get to 15s until your 12th character level.) Your 11th Bard level opens up 4th level spells, and your Bard Song starts granting +2 AC.
So you could go with 8 levels of Bard in a row, 4 levels of Red Dragon Disciple in a row, then come back for 3 more Bard levels in a row. Or alternately 8 levels of Bard in a row, 2 levels of Red Dragon Disciple in a row, 3 more levels of Bard in a row, 2 more levels of Red Dragon Disciple. They both bring you to the same place (Bard 11 / Red Dragon Disciple 4) and even out the abilities you get per level.
Other combinations can get you to Bard 11 / Red Dragon Disciple 4, but along the way you might find some character levels very difficult for you because you are going too many levels in a row without adding significant abilities.
Keep that in mind when planning your level progression. Red Dragon Disciple may become available to you at sixth level, but that's not necessarily the best time to take it.
Also keep in mind that your groupings pre-21st level sort of cap your BAB. As a rule of thumb, for a character class that advances 3/4 BAB/level, it is best to take them in groups of 4 before 21st level. Your BAB is +15 if you are Bard 12 / Red Dragon Disciple 8. Your BAB is +14 if you go Bard 10 / Red Dragon Disciple 10. Starting at 21st level, your BAB advances +1 regardless of class you take. You don't make up that +1 BAB you lose before 21st level, it's gone for good, so it it worth maximizing as much as possible.
On the other hand, Bard is also a very flexible class, that can be made to serve many other roles with the right multi-classing. If you do add RDD levels, you should also take some levels in Fighter (or possibly another warrior class) as well, and start playing as a warrior, relying on your Song and spells for a little extra buffing. That is the only way to get the full benefits of that class.
It may depend in part on whether one is playing through each level.
When it comes to combat effectiveness, Bard Song seems to really slow down at 16th level, while the Perform Skill requirements start getting really high. The attack/damage/saving throw adjustment hits maximum at 15. Going from 15 to 16 gets another AC adjustment of 1. It takes another 9 levels to get the next AC adjustment of 1. At the same time, the Perform Skill requirment jumps from 30 at Bard level 16 to 75 at Bard level 25. It takes a lot of investment in the Perform Skill (skill points, Charisma increases, skill enhancement feats) and maybe even then a little magical item help.
Extra spell effectiveness is interesting, but if my concept is primarily a warrior-type, I don't intend to rely on spells for damage. The spells are for utility and defense. Extra Bard levels make defensive spells harder to dispel- but once 10 levels of Red Dragon Disciple were added to the character, that made the character vulnerable to enemy dispels.
The effects of the skill adjustments from higher levels of Bard Song are potentially interesting, in how they affect combat-oriented skills like Concentration, Discipline, Taunt, Tumble, etc.
However, for a combat-oriented Bard who will fight in melee often, I think there is a lot I can do with those extra levels beyond 16. The feats from 8 Fighter levels are significant- that is two feats of weapon specialization, plus either some help in feats to meet the Overwhelming Critical pre-requisites or getting combat-relevant epic feats quicker, and even if a 4th attack isn't a big deal, +1 BAB (at least) is significant.
The feats you eventually make up somewhat at the back end- but that starts at Bard level 23 (I assume character level 33).
Using those levels for Champion of Torm helps with the feats, saving throw bonuses, and Charisma-based abilities like Smite Evil and Divine Wrath. Going the evil route, 9 levels of Pale Master offers +6 AC, immunities to stun, hold, paralyze, and the 20th level column on the Bard spells per day. (And that's 1 level short of the 10th level of Pale Master, which offers immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks.)
If I am playing through the levels, I want the extra combat abilities to come sooner rather than later, and not wait for a character to come together at level 40. If I were playing primarily a warrior type, the Bard/RDD looks like it slows down in the mid-20s of character level, to pick up perhaps at the mid-30s when the build starts coming together. It is perhaps a different calculus if I weren't playing through all the levels.
High levels of Bard Song look great for debuffing ability- but I don't know if I would make such a character a melee fighter secondarily (and thus not add in Red Dragon Disciple at all). It would be great to start with a Curse Song, then Taunt choice targets whose Concentration is lowered. In the meantime, a melee-oriented companion takes advantage of low AC and low Discipline to Knockdown and slaughter. When there's no one to Taunt, I'd turn to missile weapons or spells. Or I could rush in to melee, but that +8 Strength that Red Dragon Disciple gives would seem superflous when beating up on cursed, prone, taunted enemies.
It may depend in part on whether one is playing through each level.
When it comes to combat effectiveness, Bard Song seems to really slow down at 16th level, while the Perform Skill requirements start getting really high...It takes a lot of investment in the Perform Skill (skill points, Charisma increases, skill enhancement feats) and maybe even then a little magical item help.
Extra spell effectiveness is interesting, but if my concept is primarily a warrior-type, I don't intend to rely on spells for damage. The spells are for utility and defense.
Extra Bard levels make defensive spells harder to dispel- but once 10 levels of Red Dragon Disciple were added to the character, that made the character vulnerable to enemy dispels.
The feats from 8 Fighter levels are significant- that is two feats of weapon specialization, plus either some help in feats to meet the Overwhelming Critical pre-requisites
or getting combat-relevant epic feats quicker, and even if a 4th attack isn't a big deal, +1 BAB (at least) is significant.
The feats you eventually make up somewhat at the back end- but that starts at Bard level 23 (I assume character level 33).
Using those levels for Champion of Torm helps with the feats, saving throw bonuses, and Charisma-based abilities like Smite Evil and Divine Wrath.
Going the evil route, 9 levels of Pale Master offers +6 AC, immunities to stun, hold, paralyze, and the 20th level column on the Bard spells per day. (And that's 1 level short of the 10th level of Pale Master, which offers immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks.)
If I am playing through the levels, I want the extra combat abilities to come sooner rather than later, and not wait for a character to come together at level 40. If I were playing primarily a warrior type, the Bard/RDD looks like it slows down in the mid-20s of character level, to pick up perhaps at the mid-30s when the build starts coming together. It is perhaps a different calculus if I weren't playing through all the levels.
High levels of Bard Song look great for debuffing ability- but I don't know if I would make such a character a melee fighter secondarily (and thus not add in Red Dragon Disciple at all).
I would disagree with this slightly -- 30 Bard/10 RDD is perfectly viable...
I do not disagree that it is perfectly viable. Taking fighter levels with Bard is just one suggestion of how to build an RDD. Ultimately the exact build that is best will be environment dependent (as always).The main point is that one should play an RDD primarily as a kind of fighter (whether one actually has fighter levels or not) or one is wasting the chief benefits of the class and levels in something else will probably serve you better. However, I do think there are some disadvantages to your build.
Losing the 4th attack isn't really relevant...
Getting 4 attacks would not be the only reason to take some fighter levels. Forgetting about that and taking just one level of Fighter would give you three feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, plus one bonus feat. Quite a lot for a small investment. That said, it seems your dismissal of 4 attacks is based on the assumption of a reasonably balanced module with mob ACs that have been appropriately proportioned relative to player AB. That is not necessarily what one actually finds in many cases. If you are sweeping through hordes of trash mobs with very low AC more attacks, even low AB ones, will do it faster. At the other extreme if one if fighting a mob with AC so high you can only hit it on a 20, the sheer number of attacks becomes very important.
When it comes to combat effectiveness, Bard Song seems to really slow down at 16th level, while the Perform Skill requirements start getting really high...
And there's no "maybe" about it -- you will need magical item help (and/or an environment that fixed Bard Song)...
Exactly, absent items providing significant bonuses to Perform, benefits from Bard Song will tend to reach a point of diminishing returns due to Perform requirements that range somewhere between impractically large and impossibly large.
...even a level 40 Bard is vulnerable to Mord's Disjunction while Bard 26+ is immune to Greater Dispel and below.
Exactly, so how does having 30 Bard Levels vs 26 help you here? Unless your point was that one will be somewhat less vulnerable to dispels at various points in the process of leveling up?
And how many pre-epic feats do you really need anyway?
For a start, Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Curse Song, Blindfight, Toughness (Bards have low base HP).
Possibly Still Spell if you are going around as a heavily armored arcane caster.
If Devastating Critical is not disabled then an RDD will probably want to take it, so add Power Attack, Cleave & Great Cleave (and Cleave is useful regardless).
If resting restictions are present, possibly Extend Spell and Lingering Song. If there are no resting restrictions some of the advantages of your build (longer base spell durations, more bard song uses, earlier access to Lasting Inspiration) also become unimportant.
In an environment with opportunites for XP farming, Craft Wand. Effectively unlimited casting of all sorts of useful spells.
Quite a lot of feats to try and fit into a build even with Fighter or COT levels.