the path of an arrow - or what's the most efficient arcane archer build

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Adyana Fenn wrote...

why a bug? as long as i understand it properly, i guess it's about zen archery making one rise wisdom instead of dexterity, and imbue arrow needs high dex.

Correct, the explosion will happen regardless of the touch attack roll (though the DC is based on Dex not Wisdom), so the touch attack only accounts for direct damage to the target.  Unfortunately, touch attack rolls cannot be changed without a thorough rescripting, so no matter whether you take weapon finesse or zen archery the ability will not adjust accordingly.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Are we talking about the same thing?

How does NWN calculate a touch attack? The proper way to calculate it is to have a separate AC for touch attacks, and the attack roll is calculated against that. It does not sound like that is the case in this discussion. In anycase, this is moot since this stuff is hardcoded. But it is definitely a bug in the sense that the expected behavior is different from the actual behavior.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

henesua wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...
BTW, zen archery significantly nerfs the ranged touch DC of the Imbued Arrow for an AA.  Something to consider.

Sounds like a bug. What say you, shadooow?

Maybe, dnd SRD isn't very specifics on this and we can't know what NWN designers intented. But its hardcoded anyway so not much we can do about it without NWNX, bonus to AB counts to +20cap, not possible to change abilities on the fly, probably not possible to get real AC of target, (AB wouldnt be such an issue) and not compatible with custom content.

References: Zen Archery, touch attack
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

henesua wrote...
But it is definitely a bug in the sense that the expected behavior is different from the actual behavior.

I would give you my vote for "its a bug", but believe me many peoples out there will not agree, especially The Krit who acts like he is the only one who can decide what is bug and what is not.

I found out when creating the unofficial Patch that there is many builders out there who doesn't like *any* changes. I read some discussion about the Patch on PW forums and builders often took even "inv+GS, reduced KD spamming and even AOE spells fix" as a wrong and imbalanced things as it changes their environment, someone even point the AOE spells as a imbalanced because in their module without installing 1.70 they never worked before, once they worked they found out that no monsters has resistances/immunities to deal with them thus they decided not to fix them to keep theirs environment.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 30 janvier 2012 - 08:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

henesua wrote...

Are we talking about the same thing?

How does NWN calculate a touch attack? The proper way to calculate it is to have a separate AC for touch attacks, and the attack roll is calculated against that. It does not sound like that is the case in this discussion. In anycase, this is moot since this stuff is hardcoded. But it is definitely a bug in the sense that the expected behavior is different from the actual behavior.

Ranged touch attack is weapon AB + dex modifier + AB effects.  Technically a touch attack shouldn't even occur for determining if the arrow hit and penetrated.  Ranged touch attacks are more designed around abilities like ethercap web bolts where penetration is not an issue.  Because touch attacks are the only scripted commands for conducting an attack roll, the AA feats will use the touch attack where they should use just a normal attack (e.g. hail of arrows).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
"AOE spells fix" as a wrong and imbalanced things as it changes their environment,

For that one there is a discrepancy between DnD 3.0 and 3.5.  Some builders are very wary of 3.5 "updates" since they have in the past caused more problems than help (e.g. EMS).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

WhiZard wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
"AOE spells fix" as a wrong and imbalanced things as it changes their environment,

For that one there is a discrepancy between DnD 3.0 and 3.5.  Some builders are very wary of 3.5 "updates" since they have in the past caused more problems than help (e.g. EMS).

Not sure if we are talking about the same thing. There is more AOE related "fixes" changes in my patch, some are really "on the edge" like the spellmantle not block the AOE spell effects (which match 3.5rules but I did it from different reason). What I meant is the AOE heartbeat issue fix, on some modules AOE spells doesnt run their heartbeat. Patch 1.70 can fix this and that was what I meant, one server did it and then blamed me and Patch because they considered the normal AOE effects that works in singleplayer to be imbalanced (and in their environment they really was, but really a Patch issue?).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
What I meant is the AOE heartbeat issue fix, on some modules AOE spells doesnt run their heartbeat. Patch 1.70 can fix this and that was what I meant, one server did it and then blamed me and Patch because they considered the normal AOE effects that works in singleplayer to be imbalanced (and in their environment they really was, but really a Patch issue?).

Do you mean an added heartbeat for a heartbeat intended AoE (such as mindfog) or do you mean that on some servers the AoEs in general were not carrying out the standard heartbeat events.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Yes I mean those server where AOEs like acid fog doesn't execute their heartbeat scripts.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               I didn't now that about Expertise. I looked in The NWN Wiki, and you're right, Expertise cannot be used with a ranged weapon, and neither can Power Attack. I would want INT 14 for the skills anyway. I'll have to rethink what feats to take.

Another idea I haven't built yet would be Bard 10 / Fighter 8 / AA 22, with no EXP penalty until level 40, when it no longer matters. Yet another idea would be Bard X / AA Y /  and Pale Master Z, but I haven't yet thought that one out fully.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Balduvard]

               

Adyana Fenn wrote...
when it comes to monk, apart from AC bonus from wisdom, it's rather focused on dealing a lot of damage in hand-to-hand combat, imho.

At lower levels of monk, the defensive abilities (minor speed boost, disease immunity, and a minor save boost) outclass the hand-to-hand combat abilities for me--improved evasion is really the target feat that the monk splash is after, for dealing with annoying casters or traps.

From an OC standpoint, a bowbarian works out fairly well. When you hit your ability bonus cap through gear though, barbarian rage doesn't garner you much in addition to only lasting a minute or so each use for only a few uses per rest. When you have to go 15 minutes between resting, such temporary bonuses do not offer much value. That, and I just hate the downtime spent resting, so I opt for more permanent bonuses.

henesua wrote...
Balduvard why didn't you use the zen archery feat?

Dexterity is more useful than wisdom for my purposes, in addition to having to burn another feat to hit a target when I innately have the ability to hit that target without the feat, if I just invest in dexterity. If you're not using the monk unarmed combat feats (or not having enough levels to gain them), wisdom doesn't gain you much over dexterity, except for will saves.

I have found that the Monk splash is naturally one that benefits most from a balanced ability distribution. Everything but charisma benefits the combat capability of the build, which naturally makes it difficult to focus in one ability, though with the +15 AB bonus there is less need to maximize the primary ability or pick a high BAB class.

Of course the other major draw to early barbarian levels, uncanny dodge, is not as useful to me since I have an item that grants Defensive Awareness II.

All a question of the environment you play in.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Adyana Fenn]

               Empyre65: checked it. RDD for an archer that doesn't want to be a spellcaster equals to epic fail.

bowbarian: 9lvl barbarian, 1lvl wizard, 5lvl arcane archer (15lvl total - hotu beginning)
dragonbow: 5lvl bard, 10lvl red dragon disciple (the rest should be AA, but since it's already lvl 15...)
feats/skills: similar, bowbarian got toughness as far as i remember
base stats:
bowbarian: strength: 16, dexterity: 18, all the rest: 10
dragonbow: strength: 12, dexterity: 19, constitution: 12, charisma: 11 (couldn't make it lower), all the rest: 10
stats at lvl 15:
bowbarian: strength: 16 (20 during rage), dexterity: 21, all the rest: 10
dragonbow: strength: 20, dexterity: 22, constitution: 14, intelligence: 12, wisdom: 10, charisma: 13
AC (with same leather armor, allowing +6 dex bonus): bowbarian: 20, dragonbow: 26

so far so good?

HP: bowbarian: 142, dragonbow: 120
toughness influences that, and dragonbow has mobility, so it's still not all that obvious at this point.

AB and damage (with same +3 shortbow with mighty 5):
bowbarian: +26/+21/+16 (damage: +6)
dragonbow: +20/+15 (damage: +5)

dragonbow has much better will saves, but that doesn't change the fact that when it comes to dealing damage, it has much smaller AB at the same level. one may argue that at lvl 40 the difference won't be that visible and other factors will make dragonbow better, one may also argue that it would be possible to mix in some AA levels before level 15 - but then dragonbow would loose much of the str and AC bonus, so overall it would be still weaker than bowbarian (at level 15), at least when it comes to being an archer and nothing else.

for persistent worlds such dragonbow build may be interesting, but for OCs bowbarian is a lot better - barbarian's BAB nails it. that brings another thing - unless one wants to be a spellbow, taking levels in classes with BAB smaller than 1 (other than mandatory level of wizard) is nonsense imho - perhaps with the exception of rogue/assassin builds (overwhelmed by enemies - sneak attack is useless, strong enemies/bossess - sneak attack is useless, undead - sneak attack is useless, and assassin would be possible only after 5 levels of bard, with his death attacks as useless as sneak attacks of rogue).

that dragonbow build is far from being optimal - but it's focused on being an archer, not a spellbow, which isn't a good way with 5lvl of bard as a requirement for RDD. to make bard more usable, one would have to sacrifice some feats to grab those making bard song useful - but we don't have too many feats in such build, and archer needs them - and increase charisma, to get some spells working. but what would it give? +2 damage from bard song? cat's grace? dragonbow is a dead end imho, unless one plans to build 40lvl character.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Adyana Fenn, 31 janvier 2012 - 02:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               A bit off-topic here, but it is possible to redo touch attacks - albeit it takes a lot of work!

See the PRC for details (basically, they rewrit the entire combat engine).

Pretty awesome stuff!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               Did you take Dev Crit into account? Here's the RDD AA build I was talking about. After you finish HotU, don't discard your character. Take her into the Sands of Fate series, and you'll get the rest of the way to level 40. You might already know this trick, but you can copy-and-paste your build into the notes tab in your in-game journal to have it on hand as you play.

Draconic Archer (Bard 7 / Red Dragon Disciple 10 / Arcane Archer 23)
Elf, Any Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 16 (26)
DEX: 17 (30)
CON: 10 (12)
WIS: 8
INT: 12 (14)
CHA: 12 (14)

Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Bard(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
05: Bard(5)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Blind Fight
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=18)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): STR+1, (STR=19)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Power Attack, (STR=21)
10: Arcane Archer(1)
11: Arcane Archer(2)
12: Arcane Archer(3): STR+1, Cleave, (STR=22)
13: Arcane Archer(4)
14: Arcane Archer(5)
15: Red Dragon Disciple(5): Improved Critical: Longbow
16: Red Dragon Disciple(6): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
17: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=12)
18: Red Dragon Disciple(: Great Cleave
19: Arcane Archer(6)
20: Arcane Archer(7): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, (INT=14)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=26), (CHA=14)
23: Arcane Archer(
24: Arcane Archer(9): DEX+1, Overwhelming Critical: Longbow, (DEX=21)
25: Arcane Archer(10)
26: Arcane Archer(11)
27: Bard(6): Devastating Critical: Longbow
28: Arcane Archer(12): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
29: Arcane Archer(13)
30: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity I, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=24)
31: Arcane Archer(15)
32: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
33: Arcane Archer(17): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=26)
34: Arcane Archer(18): Epic Prowess
35: Arcane Archer(19)
36: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=28)
37: Bard(7)
38: Arcane Archer(21)
39: Arcane Archer(22): Armor Skin, Great Dexterity V, (DEX=29)
40: Arcane Archer(23): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 350
Skillpoints: 214
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 23/21/31
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 35 (melee), 52 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 34/37
Spell Casting: Bard(3)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 40(48), Listen 43(44), Lore 20(29), Perform 10(12), Spellcraft 38(40), Tumble 40(50), UMD 23(25)

01: Discipline(4), Lore(2), Perform(2), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4)
02: Lore(1), Perform(3), Tumble(1)
03: Lore(3), Perform(1), UMD(1)
04: Lore(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), UMD(2)
05: Lore(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(2), UMD(1)
06: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(2)
07: Discipline(3)
08: Discipline(3)
09: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(2)
10: Lore(5)
11: Lore(1), Save(4)
12: Lore(1), Save(
13: Save(13)
14: Save(18)
15: Discipline(6), Spellcraft(7), Save(
16: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(9)
17: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(10)
18: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(11)
19: Save(16)
20: Save(21)
21: Discipline(3), Spellcraft(2), Save(19)
22: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(21)
23: Save(27)
24: Save(33)
25: Save(39)
26: Save(45)
27: Discipline(5), Perform(2), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(25), UMD(15)
28: Listen(6)
29: Listen(6)
30: Listen(6)
31: Listen(6)
32: Listen(6)
33: Save(6)
34: Save(12)
35: Save(18)
36: Save(24)
37: Discipline(10), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(10)
38: Listen(6)
39: Listen(6)
40: Listen(1), Lore(5)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Adyana Fenn]

               did you miss the part where i was comparing bowbarian with dragonbow at level 15? i'm not willing to play a character that's less than suitable for the role i want to play, just because 'it will be all fine at level 40'. it should be playable and fun since level 15 - and at level 15 you've got useless power attack and cleave, together with 10 levels at 3/4 BAB. also, you're wasting feats and stat points just to get dev crit, which isn't that useful with a bow. i mean, how often will it hit? personally i wouldn't bother with dev crit unless with dual kukri weapon master/some build focused on rapier or scimitar.