Thoughts on Rogue / cleric / WM build

[Legacy_XGrimorgX]

               The Master of Divine Trickery

It's been some time since I first started playing NWN1, but I always liked playing Clerics. A couple years back I played the Sands of Fate series with a pure cleric focused heavy on WIS (implosion), but I got frustrated halfway part 3 and quit. That was because of the big number of enemies with *spell immunity* and all the hidden doors. Clerics don't get many skill points anyway and cross-class skills like search are a pain then. A couple weeks ago I started a new character in HoTU and then through the Sands of Fate series with a similar build. After completing SoF3 Pyramid of the Ancients I felt this character was quite good. I've given it quite some thought (and searching builds online) on how I could improve the build even more and I've come up with this. Since it's the first actual build I post online I'm open to suggestions.


RACE: Human

ALIGNMENT: Any

PLAYABILITY: 1-40 PvM, not tested PvP

STARTING STATS:

STR - 15  -> 22
DEX - 14
CON - 10
WIS - 15  -> 19
INT - 14
CHA -  8


BASIC STATS:

- Hit Points: 360

- Skill Points: 281    

- Skills:
*Needed for weaponmaster: Intimidate (4)*
Suggested to max Discipline (42), Tumble (43), UMD (43), Concentration (41) and Spellcraft (41)
That leaves 67 skillpoints to be assigned on whatever skill you like.
Only Taunt isn't available as a class skill in this build.

- Saving Throws (Fort/Ref/Will):
19/23/23
+8 vs spells from spellcraft

- Naked AC: 21
Full Plate +8
Tower Shield +3    (=32 if dispelled)    
2xMagic Vestment +10
Barkskin +5
Shield of Faith +5
Battletide: +2 (enemy receives -2AB)

= 54 AC    

- BAB: 26

- AB:
Unbuffed: +37 / +32 / +27 / +22
Buffed: +57 / +52 / +47 / +42  (Emp Bulls needed for +6 or +7 str)

Long Buffs: Greater Magic weapon = +5, Aid = +1, Prayer = +1, EMP Bull +2-4
(Extended) Divine Power +4 (1 (or 2) Round/lvl) <-Keep multiple to recast
(Extended) Divine Favor = +5 and (1 turn (or 2 turns)) <-Keep multiple to recast

- Spellcasting:
All Cleric spells, the amounts per level are listed below
lvl 0    : 6x
lvl 1-4    : 7x
Lvl 5    : 6x
lvl 6-9 : 5x

The Cleric domains I choose most of the time are:
Trickery (mainly for the spell Improved Invisibility = 50% chance the attacker misses you)
Plant (Barkskin for natural armor AC +5  and Creeping Doom-> no save & no spell resistance possible)
(As in most builds you could swap Plant for Travel when items with Haste are rare)

LEVELING GUIDE:

1- Rogue (1)                    Dodge, Mobility    *Intimidate=4*
2- Rogue (2)                    Free: Evasion
3- Rogue (2) / Cleric (1)            Domains: Trickery,  Plant
4- Rogue (2) / Cleric (2)            +1 STR (16) Expertise
5- Rogue (2) / Cleric (3)
6- Rogue (2) / Cleric (4)
7- Rogue (3) / Cleric (4)
8- Rogue (3) / Cleric (5)            +1 WIS (16)    
9- Rogue (3) / Cleric (6)            Weapon Focus: Rapier
10- Rogue (3) / Cleric (7)
11- Rogue (3) / Cleric (
12- Rogue (4) / Cleric (            +1 STR (17) Whirlwind Attack
13- Rogue (4) / Cleric ( / Weapon master (1)    Weapon of Choice: Rapier
14- Rogue (4) / Cleric ( / Weapon master (2)    
15- Rogue (4) / Cleric ( / Weapon master (3)    Improved Critical: Rapier
16- Rogue (4) / Cleric ( / Weapon master (4)    +1 STR (18)
17- Rogue (4) / Cleric ( / Weapon master (5)    
18- Rogue (4) / Cleric ( / Weapon master (6)    Extend Spell
19- Rogue (4) / Cleric ( / Weapon master (7)    
20- Rogue (4) / Cleric (9) / Weapon master (7)    +1 STR (18)
21- Rogue (4) / Cleric (10) / Weapon master (7)    Blind Fight
22- Rogue (5) / Cleric (10) / Weapon master (7)    
23- Rogue (5) / Cleric (11) / Weapon master (7)    
24- Rogue (5) / Cleric (12) / Weapon master (7)    +1 STR (20) Knockdown
25- Rogue (5) / Cleric (13) / Weapon master (7)    
26- Rogue (5) / Cleric (14) / Weapon master (7)    
27- Rogue (6) / Cleric (14) / Weapon master (7)    Empower Spell
28- Rogue (6) / Cleric (15) / Weapon master (7)    +1 WIS (17)
29- Rogue (6) / Cleric (16) / Weapon master (7)    
30- Rogue (6) / Cleric (17) / Weapon master (7)    Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier
31- Rogue (6) / Cleric (18) / Weapon master (7)    
32- Rogue (7) / Cleric (18) / Weapon master (7)    +1 WIS (18)
33- Rogue (7) / Cleric (19) / Weapon master (7)    Armor Skin
34- Rogue (7) / Cleric (20) / Weapon master (7)    
35- Rogue (7) / Cleric (21) / Weapon master (7)    
36- Rogue (7) / Cleric (22) / Weapon master (7)    +1 STR (21) Epic Prowess
37- Rogue (7) / Cleric (23) / Weapon master (7)    Bonus Feat: Great Wis I (wis=19)
38- Rogue (7) / Cleric (24) / Weapon master (7)    
39- Rogue (7) / Cleric (24) / Weapon master (    Toughness
40- Rogue ( / Cleric (24) / Weapon master (    +1 STR (22)

SIMILAR BUILDS:
Piercing the Heart cleric 19 / rogue 2 / weapon master 19 (human?) by Separ
The idea to use the rapier came from this build, but it's more focused on the weaponmaster levels where the extra feats are used for great STR. AB is a little lower because of that, but you get a lot more skillpoints, possible 4d6 sneak attack, more clericlevels = harder to dispell buffs.
Plant domain grants creeping doom, a nice spell to have with a low WIS cleric.


SPECIAL NOTES:
This character will probably run around in heavy armor allowing only 1 dexbonus. You need 13 dex though for this build. Starting with 13 dex and 11 con and swapping a +1 str to +1 con might be an option for the not so great amount of hitpoints.

The highest levels of Spellcasting come very late in this build. It's of course possible to get level 6,7 and 8 earlier by swapping str+1 with wis+1. Note

that WIS 19 is taken on the lvl 23 Epic Cleric bonus feat. It's possible to take Armor Skin there and take a Great Wis at Cleric 19. The choice on those Epic Cleric bonus feats is limited so you can't swap it that easily with anything else.


7- FINAL NOTES:
The Master of Divine Trickery is not really specialised in melee, spellcasting or rogue tricks in itself. The versatility of the build should suit the lone wanderer though. You should be able to easily adapt to any situation with more than adequate fighting skills, rogue skills and a full and adaptable spellbook.   You threaten a critical on 40% of your hits (without the keen property!!), possibility of sneak attacks, versatility of the clerics spellbook.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               I think that WM doesnt give much power for this build, I mean yes it does but you have to pay it badly with base dex/lots of feat with 6fighter levels you get more I think. Or 6-10champion of torm.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SmkNThDrkNght]

               As is this build doesn't work, spring attack  is a pre req for whirlwind attack which is a pre req for Weapon Master , and its nowhere to be found...







               
               

               

                     Modifié par SmkNThDrkNght, 05 juin 2011 - 04:38 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               Guess he meant to put Spring Attack at level 6 (and Expertise at level 3).

AB is too low for a Cleric. That's partly due to feat starvation and taking 4 pre-epic feats in epic. There are better 3rd classes for Cleric/Rogue, Fighter and CoT as already mentioned, and Monk if going the sneaker route.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

qaerinju wrote...
AB is too low for a Cleric. That's partly due to feat starvation and taking 4 pre-epic feats in epic. There are better 3rd classes for Cleric/Rogue, Fighter and CoT as already mentioned, and Monk if going the sneaker route.

This about summarizes the weakness of WM in a build like this just to get the crit benefits. You can't crit if you can't hit. The WM prereqs are typically too obscene unless there are enough WM levels to make it worthwhile (at least 13, IMO, even more is better in groups of 3).

If you don't mind going evil, assassin will give all the same rogue skills though not as many points per level (obviously).  But it would be a more XP-friendly mix with Clc/Ftr/Asn and you can choose any number of levels to strike some balance between attack boosting feats (ftr) and skills (asn) so you can actually hit stuff even when unbuffed.  The more ftr levels pre-epic will yield the best BAB. And Dex & Int should be able to be dropped enough to gain a few more AB via Str without clogging things with WM.

That's the way I would approach making a skillful cleric that can still swat most enemies when the spells fizzle.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 07 juin 2011 - 04:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SmkNThDrkNght]

               

qaerinju wrote...
Guess he meant to put Spring Attack at level 6 (and Expertise at level 3).

Very true but I had a crying 1 month old in my lap when I posted so I couldn't post much more than I did. Also OP try a diiferent style for your level progression posting as yours is very... idk I guess busy, try something like this...

01:R1 (dodge)<mobility>
02: R2
03:C1 (expertise)
04:C2 STR+1<16>
05:C3
06:C4 (spring attack)
07:R3
08:C5 WIS+1<16>
etc...
it makes it alot easier to review. The rest of the posting looks good and detailed. I would move some feats around as already suggested such as losing improved crit altogether for blindfight and get rid of extend spell for knockdown (freeing up 2 epic feats) and if you removed empower you would get a third. I do like the under used weapon master class but almost never more than 7 levels. You know with some minor tweaks this looks like a fun build to play, maybe not the most powerful but fun nonetheless. I'll look into it somemore when the little lady and the baby let me.








               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               I cant believe i hadnt posted on this guy!  While cleric and wm look sexy on paper, it isnt worth it.  Not at all!  Too many feats for so little return for the most versatile class in nwn anyway.  Save wm for the fighters that need the crit range!  LOL  I have done a few cleric/wm in my day (search the Epic character builders guild on old bioware to evidence this) and they arent as solid as other options.  If you want to go cle/rog, maybe one SD lvl!  Just a thought.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_XGrimorgX]

               Thanks all for the replies. Both Cleric and Rogue are both very good base classes imo, especially combined. Adding fighter, even when human, means XP penalty if I remember correctly. That's why I looked for a nice prestige class to avoid that and WM seemed like a good choice since the build is more focused on melee than spellcasting anyway.

Assassin is not really my type of character. I usually end up being good in alignment, so I think evil doesn't really suit my style '>

Chapion of Torm crossed my mind, but doesn't that class rely a lot on charisma to boost the special abilities? It would mainly benefit from the saves then I guess?

The Shadowdancer class might idd be a nice idea instead of the WM. That's probably not a 1 BAB class though, which means you sacrifice the 4th attack.

WM, as mentioned means sacificing a lot of feats and starting stat points for prerequisite.


Switching to Shadowdancer appeals the most to me atm, but I wonder how significant that 4th attack is in a more melee build. All Cl/R/SD builds I've found were DEX-based btw
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               4th attack is very significant for melee build.

And Champion of Torm isnt really bound to charisma, yes if you have some charisma you can use his divine wrath but thats once per day for very short time. CoT is used especially for the bonus feats. The additional saves are used mainly in pvp.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               I am no expert on builds esp WM, but am currently playing a planned Druid 24/ Ftr 8/ Rog 8.

If you take 4 lvls of Ftr and Rog pre-Epic and keep them within a single lvl, you may avoid any XP penalties. Generally I target 2, 7, 12, and 17 for Ftr for Discipline, then place my Rog lvls just after for UMD and Tumble. Rinse and repeat for Epic.

CoT and Cleric benefit from CHA, but do not lose a lot if CHA is not padded, IMO.

A main penalty from either build is dilution of the Clerical abilities. If you can find a way to reduce to Ftr 6 or 4/ Rog 6 or 4, this might help. This seems to depend on how you want to use the Cleric, as it may matter more offensively rather than a buffing defensive design.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Failed.Bard]

               Cleric/Ranger/Shadowdancer might be a decent compromise build.  You lose the initial extra sneak damage, but get the higher BAB levels at the start when you need it.  You could go as high as cleric 30 that way as well, if you wanted (clr 30/rgr 9/sd 1).  Ranger 9 gives free improved 2-weapon, though ranger 10 gives an extra favoured enemy.
 Just keep in mind the 3/4 BAB classes don't get an extra point of BAB at level 1, so if the first SD level is take pre epic, taking SD 4 before 20th won't cost you any extra BAB, if you want more levels in that class.