Spellcaster builds

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               Ah now I get you, your definition of "best" melee mage is something that can get hit a lot, not something that can hit. All I'm seeing in the linked build is another con based spammer with more spam at the cost of no crit immunity. Works well in most PvM environments and against dumb PvPers who want to beat themselves to death on the shields.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               Wizards are by FAR the BEST HITTING class (with a weapon) in nwn!  The WM, fighter, pals, ranger, clerics can all go to hades as with a sword in their hands, they are NOTHING to the melee prowess of the caster focused wizard!  It is too bad we have drifted so far away from what the OP asked discussing the nonsense of a class i could care less of!  It is actually my fault in that i mistook your rambling qaerinju for the OPer, not some demi god of the arcane world!   Since the rest of whomever are involved in this topic have left, i leave the rest to your capable hands!  



roflmao!  Thanks for the chuckles!   Since i dont nor ever really cared to play wizards, your insights have proven that i made the correct choice 7 years ago!  I hate being right  '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               6 AC Items with +10 AB/ Enchantment Bonus weapons is a good system...
+5 AC / AB Standard add +1 AC (for 5 Types) = + 5 AC e.g.. +5 AB / EB needed..

As far as Clerics, they are powerful on low Magic / Low Level Magic Item modules becuase they can buff good..  making a buffing cleric / monk a pretty powerful build indeed..  But then if you just want to buff, why not just use Paladin?  They get +5 AB + 5 Magic Dmg from just one spell!  And you get more Hit Points & a Higher base attack bonus (BAB).

As far as the most powerful caster, obviously Wizards rule there..

To me best caster is one that can take a licking and keep on slinging spells...

Enters the Dwarven Battle Mage...

33 Wizard / 6 Dwarven Defender / 1 Rogue
Which has Epic Damage Reduction 3  which is also a Stackable Damage Resistant just like the DR gained by being a Dwarven Defender...

I have found this build to be the most powerful build on almost any server, with the exception of servers that nerf Magic considerably...

Then of Course, if you like building Mage LIke Toons that Hit Good/ there is...

Bard 8 / 16 AA / 16 Pale Master - High AC High AB... Nice Build (Immune to Crits/Sneaks)
This build uses Epic Warding (+20/50 Damage Reduction Epic Spell)  and Epic Mage Armor +5 Dodge Bonus AC (Stacks)

There are a bunch of builds that are good, if you like both combat & magic...

But Wizards excel in certain cases where other casters do not..  And that is Options...

Water / Air Clerics are pretty powerful as they have a good repitore of spells to choose from..

Ice Storm is without a doubt one of the best spells in the game..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 11 août 2010 - 10:46 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

avado wrote...

Since i dont nor ever really cared to play wizards

That much is obvious.

You're right though that mages should for the most part stick to casting and not meleeing. However it can be fun, in the right environment, to fool around with a mage that rarely casts offensively but is decent in melee combat. A while ago I made a build along those lines. With no gear at all other than mundane underpants it could self-buff to 63 AB (no True Strike), 80 AC and up to 8 APR. With Divine Might, Epic Mage Armor, and Epic Warding. Fun build but definitely not recommended for PvP due to very heavy reliance on buffs.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               

qaerinju wrote...

avado wrote...

Since i dont nor ever really cared to play wizards

That much is obvious.

You're right though that mages should for the most part stick to casting and not meleeing. However it can be fun, in the right environment, to fool around with a mage that rarely casts offensively but is decent in melee combat. A while ago I made a build along those lines. With no gear at all other than mundane underpants it could self-buff to 63 AB (no True Strike), 80 AC and up to 8 APR. With Divine Might, Epic Mage Armor, and Epic Warding. Fun build but definitely not recommended for PvP due to very heavy reliance on buffs.

OR you could play PRC rules and get all that and more with Warding of 2000hp absorb ON A CLERIC!  Oh right, this ISNT prc!   PRC tweaks EMA to +20 ARMOR ac!  so you get stupid crazy AC buffs.  To bad more people havent grabbed it like they seem to have grabbed the PRC in nwn2.  Oh well! 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

qaerinju wrote...With no gear at all other than mundane underpants it could self-buff to 63 AB (no True Strike), 80 AC and up to 8 APR. With Divine Might, Epic Mage Armor, and Epic Warding. Fun build but definitely not recommended for PvP due to very heavy reliance on buffs.

Could you post the build?  *smiling sweetly*
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

qaerinju wrote...With no gear at all other than mundane underpants it could self-buff to 63 AB (no True Strike), 80 AC and up to 8 APR. With Divine Might, Epic Mage Armor, and Epic Warding. Fun build but definitely not recommended for PvP due to very heavy reliance on buffs.

Could you post the build?  *smiling sweetly*

There are a few ways to do this.  The most likely is SORC/ (pal or BG - align dep) with Monk, using kama.  Div might from pal/bg.  Epic spells from SORC (23 or 26 lvl) and Monk for kama (dual weild kama with haste).

I just looked at vanilla rules for epic spells and i dont think its a good idea to brag about EMA and Warding '> 

In PRC, warding gives 50/+20 rounds per caster lv OR 50*caster lvl damage absorbed!  My cleric/hospi/heiro had caster lv of 40 (you DONT go higher than that in nwn as it messes the game up bad!!) so 2000 damage absorbed.  In vanilla, 50.  '>

In PRC ema gives +20 ARMOR AC.  Vanilla, 5/5/5/5 so in a world with +5 or higher gear, you get +5 dodge ONLY (ac dont stack outside dodge). 

AND you loose 2 epic feats for that (prc is sort of like a sorc, though its been awhile since i played 2.2prc). 

Also with a build like this, the saves would be ridiculous (from Pal/bg)

Note: the AB cannot be trusted off the character sheet.  Some folks dont realize that there is +20 cap.  Taking a PURE arcane caster, the BAB is 20 at lv 40.
To that we add EWF and Prowes, or +4 to get BAB 24.

To that we add stat modifier (say Dex cuz it affects both AB and AC with finesse) of 40 to get +15 (40-10=30/2) AND that is 28 base +12 dex. 

You have a BAB of 24+15=39

No matter what the sheet says, your ab cannot be higher than 59 (39+20).   If you have a +20 wpn, true strike (+20 ab), etc, you have ONLY +20 though the character sheet could read 79.   There is an exception with Taunt which lowers their AC so effectively adding to yours. 

And you will only have 2 apr or 3 with haste. 

There is a reason people dont like playing wiz/sorcs as meleers!  LOL
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Rich J wrote...
The Druid class has many drawbacks... ...you can't use heal potions or spells while you are polymorphed, and don't even ask me how many times I've polymorphed, fought monsters until my hp are low, run away from the monsters, hitting "cancel polymorph", and getting a few seconds of lag, after which I'm dead. Not fun!

Not true. Self-healing is not one of them. Check again.  While polymorphed you can use ALL potions, heal or otherwise. Running away is not necessary but you will likely suffer the AoO from the action (unless you have elected one of the feats to minimize/prevent AoO or have high Tumble skill).  Polymorphing to Undead form (eg. Shifter Risen Lord) is a different can of worms, however.

Perhaps one of your overrides has modified this script.  Or perhaps you attempted using a healer's kit and made an assumption.  Dunno.

As a reference, this is a pure-vanilla NWN installation and I typically finish off the druid pre-buff procedure with merry gulping after shifted, in the most recent case, into an elemental form.

Kinda makes the Brew Potion skill a bit more attractive to a druid now, doesn't it?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 13 août 2010 - 03:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

qaerinju wrote...With no gear at all other than mundane underpants it could self-buff to 63 AB (no True Strike), 80 AC and up to 8 APR. With Divine Might, Epic Mage Armor, and Epic Warding. Fun build but definitely not recommended for PvP due to very heavy reliance on buffs.

Could you post the build?  *smiling sweetly*

I don't spoon feed people builds but seeing as you smiled sweetly I'll give you the outline. I'm sure you can work out the detail for yourself.
class spread is 23 Sorc/16 Cleric/1 Monk. Human. Starts with 13 str, 10 int, 17 wis, 16 cha. Ends with 18 wis and 29 cha. Domains War and Strength. Buff with everything you got then shift into Death Slaad. Obviously you can buff with the domain powers while shifted, and with Divine Might. Don't forget to take Weapon Finesse!
Choose carefully where you play it if you decide to. Obviously the lower the magic the better, not dispel heavy, and with little or no rest restrictions. And preferably with some kind of buff/sequencer item to cut down your buffing time.
Enjoy.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               I have a s26/Cl13/m1 So I figured it was something like that, (S26 because of the dispel thingy & feat. Zen archer caster in my case. '> )... but I still can't see how you get those numbers.

30 (divine power bab) + 5gmw +5 div fav + (Death Slaad shape =24 str)= +7 (+ 5 str bulls str)= +2 + 3ewf +1 prowess = 53
If your Death Slaad has weapon finesse then we can add +6 by using the dex of 36 =59
Oops, forgot battletide +2 = 61
and bless and prayer +2 = 63

Is this how you got 63?

Oh and war domain will give (+4 dex =)+2 AB and +4AB soooo =69

...but I don't think GMW is going to help Death Slaad shape as they use creature weapons not weapons so that's -5 = 64
...and nor will EWF because Death Slaad use a creature weapon and you can't take that feat so that's -3 = 61
(and I'm not completely sure whether Prowess works for shifts so that might be another -1 for 60)


It's actually a lot closer than I first thought. Which is my fault because I never normally count domain buffs because 1/day things are not representative and I hadn't thought about using shifts, but even so I can't find 63AB.

I can't find 80 AC either. (10 base +20 EMA + (36dex=) +13 + war domain dex +2, + cats grace +2 (+18 wis=) +4 + owl's wisdom +2 +10 Death Slaad shape (+the -2 to enemy Ab from battleide?) =65

Sooooo, what am I missing? (Or.. Are your numbers from combatdebugging or from the character sheet?)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 13 août 2010 - 09:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

I have a s26/Cl13/m1 So I figured it was something like that, (S26 because of the dispel thingy & feat. Zen archer caster in my case. '> )... but I still can't see how you get those numbers.

30 (divine power bab) + 5gmw +5 div fav + (Death Slaad shape =24 str)= +7 (+ 5 str bulls str)= +2 + 3ewf +1 prowess = 53
If your Death Slaad has weapon finesse then we can add +6 by using the dex of 36 =59
Oops, forgot battletide +2 = 61
and bless and prayer +2 = 63

Is this how you got 63?

Oh and war domain will give (+4 dex =)+2 AB and +4AB soooo =69

...but I don't think GMW is going to help Death Slaad shape as they use creature weapons not weapons so that's -5 = 64
...and nor will EWF because Death Slaad use a creature weapon and you can't take that feat so that's -3 = 61
(and I'm not completely sure whether Prowess works for shifts so that might be another -1 for 60)


It's actually a lot closer than I first thought. Which is my fault because I never normally count domain buffs because 1/day things are not representative and I hadn't thought about using shifts, but even so I can't find 63AB.

I can't find 80 AC either. (10 base +20 EMA + (36dex=) +13 + war domain dex +2, + cats grace +2 (+18 wis=) +4 + owl's wisdom +2 +10 Death Slaad shape (+the -2 to enemy Ab from battleide?) =65

Sooooo, what am I missing? (Or.. Are your numbers from combatdebugging or from the character sheet?)

You are missing nothing Shia.  People who dont have the courage to post their idea (build) generally arent telling the truth.   

However, in your ab calculation, you should separate out those that count towards the 20 cap and those that dont.  Divine power, fav and GMW all count, so you have +15 to +17 already.  EWF is +3 so you have between 0 and 2 to play with.

SInce he was nice enough to say that Charisma is 29 and wis is 18, the AB stats are NOT boosted.  This means his base AB preepic is 12-15 (dep on how he takes his classes).  Assume 15, at 40 it is 29 (ewf and prowess).  Now you add stat (assume str) (with slaad 24+12=36-10=26/2=13).  29+13 = 42.  +20 cap is 62, so giving my math is out 63. 

The problem is you are now in a SHAPE!  This means you have to come out of shape to recast, and div fav has 1 round MAX duration so you will be down 5 (58) for most.   Assume extend spell, your Div power dur is 32 rounds.   GMW may or may not work, and my shifting is rusty. 

In all, this relys on a VERY rest friendly environment for a one trick poney.  I assumed Pal cuz how on earth would someone take cleric in a gimped build!  LOL 

The AC is just silly!  EMA isnt +20, its 5/5/5/5 so if he has ANY clerical defense up, it negates itself (cept for dodge, and he doesnt have UEF, so...). 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               I didn't think I'd have to explain the basics on this forum, but here goes:

For max BAB go 16 Cleric/4 Sorc pre-epic = 24 BAB + 19 (capped Dex) + 6 (Divine Power) + 1 (Bless) + 1 (Aid) + 5 (Divine Favor) + 1 (Prayer) + 2 (Battletide) + 4 (War Domain) + 1 (Epic Prowess) - 1 (Large Size).

AC: 10 + 19 (capped Dex) + 7 (emp Owl's Wisdom) + 20 (EMA) + 10 (shape) + 4 (Haste) + 1 (Mage Armor) + 8 (tumble) + 2 (Armor Skin) - 1 (Large Size) = 80.

Yes obviously you'll need to deshift to keep your AB (and to some extent your AC) up. If you need to do that in the middle of combat, make sure you put EW up first. I'd allow up to a 10 minute rest restriction as you'll have 3 level 8 Cleric slots for extended AoVs. And once you've used your War Domain you're at 58 AB max so best to keep it in reserve for a tough fight.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

qaerinju wrote...

I didn't think I'd have to explain the basics on this forum, but here goes:

Sorry, I'm blonde. Sometimes you have to explain things to me two or even three times '> . Seriously tho, explaining does at least make sure we are all discussing the same thing, no?  Anyway, thanks for doing so '> . I really hadn't seen that domain spell to help max out your dex so I wouldn't've got it otherwise.

I can't say I like it because I don't like resting often and after 20 rounds or so those numbers will start to reduce, and where I play he'd be dispelled, but as far as exploiting every little nuance, it was an education, thanks. '>

Clerics are soooooooo overpowered

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

but as far as exploiting every little nuance, it was an education, thanks. '>

You're welcome.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               

qaerinju wrote...

I don't spoon feed people builds but seeing as you smiled sweetly I'll give you the outline. I'm sure you can work out the detail for yourself.

There is a reason for this!

Starts with 13 str, 10 int, 17 wis, 16 cha. Ends with 18 wis and 29 cha. Domains War and Strength. Buff with everything you got then shift into Death Slaad. Obviously you can buff with the domain powers while shifted, and with Divine Might. Don't forget to take Weapon Finesse!
Choose carefully where you play it if you decide to. Obviously the lower the magic the better, not dispel heavy, and with little or no rest restrictions. And preferably with some kind of buff/sequencer item to cut down your buffing time.
Enjoy.

I would LOVE to see HOW you manage to take 18 wisdom, 29 charisma AND 36 dex in ONE build (assuming BASE numbers as quoting buffed STATS is misleading)! 

To get to +19 dex bonus you need 19*2+10=48 dex with gear!  How on earth, with 7 epic feats and 10 stats can you get to these numbers when i count above 20 stat adds (when you got 17 or 18)?  Please edumicate.

And please, this is the GENERAL nwn forum so, indeed, explaining yourself will be required IF you make ridiculous claims and refuse to SHOW how you did it, step by step.  I am not an ignorant with builds as i have played and discussed with the BEST in nwn over 7 years.  Without explaination, i could tell you that i did a pure cleric with dev crit, warding, ema, mantle and 65 AB with 90 AC (which i did) but you could NEVER figure it out without more explaination. 

Please remember the General forums are for education, not trying to sound smarter than you are.  Like Shia says, show us how you did all this, then we can believe you!  Otherwise, as far as i am concerned, you are blowing smoke up our butts!

Just for clarification, my suggested cleric above does exist.  I built him years ago to solve a particular issue i had on a PW that is no longer the same. 

http://nwn.bioware.c...283691&gid=8061
(while he lasts at the ecb in old bioware forums).

The way i see it, if you can do all you say, you should be PROUD to show it off.