Will there ever be another NWN?

[Legacy_ChaosInTwilight]

               /me sure hopes so.

/me even has a great plan that bioware can has.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               

pkpeachykeen wrote...

There was a brief discussion tossed around on IRC the other night as to the technical side of a community-built sequel to NWN/NWN2. In about a half hour, we pretty much sorted out all the engine details and put together a solid list of resources that would be needed. With some of the existing code to load NWN and NWN2 resources and connect on the Aurora protocol, as well as open render engines like OGRE, it's just a matter of connecting all the dots we have. And finding people to connect them. There were a few folks interested, besides myself and dunniteowl, so with more suggestions and an organized team, something could very well come of that concept.

I agree whole heartedly. I've been thinking about for a few years now.

I'm off to read the Citadel thread to see the ideas.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

Lord Sullivan wrote...

I agree whole heartedly. I've been thinking about for a few years now.

I'm off to read the Citadel thread to see the ideas.

I agree. It sounds similar to some ideas that I've discussed with a few other modders over the years. I'll check out the Citadel thread over the weekend as well.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               Peachy have you considered using unity 3d. It's a professional game building tool. It's free to use on the condition that if you make $100,000 or more in a year from something you make with it then you have to pay for the tool.

It's just a thought.

TR
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_pkpeachykeen]

               Here's one of the threads, this one with my ideas. The forum it's in has a few more, though.
http://nwcitadel.for...read.php?t=1869

Now, as far as the actual engine: Unity3D is reasonably easy to start with, but there's a few things we have to worry about here.
The first one is the Vault. How many gigs, if not terabytes, of custom content are in the Vault? How many days, or even months, of modules? Why alienate all those resources?
Having support to load NWN1 and even NWN2 custom content not only opens up a whole lot of stuff to be played, it also means we don't have to make things just to test with. It also means we don't have to write a toolset before writing an engine, using the NWN toolset is possible.
To get all that in, we need to start at a lower level than things like Torque or Unity allow. Those are both high-level, simplistic engines. Honestly, both are crippled. They're good for part-time game makers starting out with Baby's First Shooter. There have been a few cases of really good games coming out, but those are bigger teams with a lot of time and work.
We already have libraries (code modules) to load NWN2 resources and interact with the Aurora protocol (for interop with old servers). Tying that into a prebuilt engine is, again, hard to do.

So basically, while using Unity is a good idea in general, if we want any kind of backward compatibility, it makes it harder. Good suggestion, just not sure if it'd work here. '> There's a lot of stuff we already have, and to avoid remaking things that just don't need remade, starting at a lower level may actually save time (yeah, I know, it sounds totally backwards).

And for anyone worried about copyright, well: it only knows how to load resources. Nothing is actually included, you still have to have the resources already. We can even check to make sure you have the engine for the game who's resources you want to use. No piracy worries, no sharing of original files, it's all good copyright-wise.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pkpeachykeen, 17 juillet 2010 - 02:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ScreamingPalm]

               Well, this thread got a lot more interesting than I anticipated! The NWN community never ceases to amaze. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Very interesting pkpeachykeen, new game client&server which would be able to work with NWN resources. If I understand that right, that would be amazing.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eric_of_Atrophy]

               

pkpeachykeen wrote...

Tyndrel wrote...
It would be good if such a game included a built in download manager for the very many hak averse players out there and some “one click” method of visiting a world related web-site or forum to gather information.

That's the sort of things that comes after, well, starting actually making the engine.  So, there's still a whole lot of time to plan a module downloader. Actually, there's a chance of making a downloader with the current system. It'd be external, but might be possible. If I have any free time, I'll take a look at the Vault's HTML structure and assess the odds. '>

This sounds similar to tani's WorldGate program - would it be something along these lines?

I love reading community brainstorm threads - IMHO, this hivemind that we have is what really will determine if anything reaches that "another NwN" status!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Snowbug]

               Too bad I don't really have any skills that would be of help with this project, but I can promise to cheer it on, I guess '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               

Snowbug wrote...

Too bad I don't really have any skills that would be of help with this project, but I can promise to cheer it on, I guess '>

Learn!! '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_dunniteowl]

               You know, this entire concept and plan has, at it's end point, the most important part of the equation:

The Players.



Player input before things start happening can be two things: A blessing and a curse.  I'd take my chances any day having player input.  I'd value thoughtful ideas and suggestions about things that matter to players.  No matter how powerful a toolset it may have, what assets it can use or leverage, how easy it is to integrate them and all that other cool jazz.  If players don't like to create their character, don't enjoy the combat, skills, choices or methods to play, then it's doom, Doom, DOOM! to the game.



So just because you don't program (I don't) and you don't script (I don't) or you can't model (I'm learning) or you haven't built a module in the toolset (I'm playing around mostly, but building) your input still has potential to shape and determine the final outcome.



I think, if folks making or designing the games and the tools to make them, no matter how empowering they can be, forget the players in the process, then they're really just shooting from the hip at others who feel pretty much the same way as they do.



NWN and NWN2 both aim to provide a level of variety and diversity that pretty much no other games I have seen can hold a candle to.  DA:O has potential, to be sure, though my estimation is that it missed the mark more than it hit it, thus wasting a decent portion of talent and time that raised the entry bar for modders (who will mostly stem from players) a bit too high at the outset.



And I personally think highly of the tools, even though I find them myself to be hard to use, there's no doubt about their power, flexibility and potential.  By the same token, the level of Savvy to use a lot of it and the specialization that some of the tools really require of a person makes it more of a team/group project oriented tool.  Solo modders are pretty much shut out from doing anything remotely cool in any decent amount of time.  



And that's a problem when you have to keep people interested as players.  So player input is required as well.  Feel free to climb the BlueSky Wagon.



best regards,

dunniteowl
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               With all respect to my fellow community members, I think the answer is, No, there will never be another game Like NWN. I believe this for the following reasons.



1. Ease of use. Anyone can play it, anyone can make a mod to play, anyone can shape it as they see fit. The learning curve is rather low, I say this because I have learned to do these things in NWN, and if I can, etc.

2. Bang for the buck. SP, MP, building, scripting, custom content making, all in one package, (I know that it does not include CC making software, but there is free ones out there that does work for NWN) After buying the game, and of course the expansions, I have not had to pay another dime, except to my isp, to play NWN. the futrure of multi-play is pay to play, Sad fact that it has become so, but it has.

3. the community where else is a community that not only helps new and older players figure out stuff, but makes new content for the game week after week and year after year. 1000s of mods, haks, portraits. amazing.

4. Based off of the best game ever made, Dungeons and Dragons. I may get some "Its not the best game ever" or "what is D&D?" but face it, if NWN was based off of monopoly, it would have died the first year. D&D use to be, wait all week, to go to some wierd dudes house, and play in the living room, while trying not to breathe in the cat aroma, all the while waiting for other players to show up. NWN took away all the bad, and left only the good, I can stay home, where there are no cats, Log in and play with others anytime I wish. Don't care for the campain, log out and join another, don't care for the people, create my own and invite friends. thank you Bio!

5. the ability to alter the core game of D&D to entirely new genres. This I add in addition to 2, and 3. even though it could have been covered by both. You can make it a Star Wars game, or a resident Evil zombie survival game, or a Harry Potter game, or a historical revolutionary war game.

6. As time has passed, the NWN experiance has not dimminished, but actualy improved, take what Chico400, and SixSixSix have done to basic look of the tilesets, and boom, new game for free. Mounts, Shading, Scaleing, perhaps soon we will see flying,



The best that could happen is more content for NWN. Maybe Bio will relese the sorce code, and then unlimited things can be done. but a new game that gives all NWN has given us, not a chance!



               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tyndrel]

               

Eric_of_Atrophy wrote...


This sounds similar to tani's WorldGate program - would it be something along these lines?

Exactly, but built into the game.

Imagine that you are scrolling through the list of available PWs, you spot one that sounds interesting so you click a button and are taken to a page that gives you better information, and if you like what you read you click another button that downloads the required files and tells you when the game is ready.  The main server list would also tell you when you need to update these files in the same "one button" way.

As a builder I have downloaded loads of beautiful content from the vault (particularly tilesets) but it has been purely for my own enjoyment. If I add the need for haks to a world I stop the casual visitor who may become a regular player.  I hope my new project will run on two linked servers, an introductory one that only uses CEP and an advanced one with additional tilesets and a custom hak (that is the theory at the moment). I struggle to understand the reluctance of many players to download free goodies to enhance their enjoyment of the game but it is an indisputable fact and builders have to live with it or find a way round, hence the suggestion.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Tyndrel, 17 juillet 2010 - 08:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ChaosInTwilight]

               

Tyndrel wrote...

As a builder I have downloaded loads of beautiful content from the vault (particularly tilesets) but it has been purely for my own enjoyment. If I add the need for haks to a world I stop the casual visitor who may become a regular player.  I hope my new project will run on two linked servers, an introductory one that only uses CEP and an advanced one with additional tilesets and a custom hak (that is the theory at the moment). I struggle to understand the reluctance of many players to download free goodies to enhance their enjoyment of the game but it is an indisputable fact and builders have to live with it or find a way round, hence the suggestion.

Yanno, I think one day I may rent a van and hire some goons.. 

Just so I can abduct random NWN players, and interogate them to find out the true answer to  "Why don't you want cool stuff for free?"
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_pkpeachykeen]

               

With all respect to my fellow community members, I think the answer is, No, there will never be another game Like NWN. I believe this for the following reasons.

Ah, but while that's the topic of the thread, that's not exactly what this community-driven engine is about.

See, we're not going for a clone. We're not going for a sequel. As dunniteowl put it in the other thread, it's going to be a chimera, a hybrid of all the best features we can find. That takes care of most every bullet point and concern expressed here. Now, as far as whether it'll ever be as "good" as NWN... Posts like Shova's are the first step to making sure it is. A list of suggestions and concerns like that can be taken and turned into a list of features, those can be evaluated from a coding perspective and rated as far as how possible they are.



What I'm trying to say here is that we're not redoing anything, not trying to top anything. We're trying to make something that does everything we need, within reason.



As flexible and powerful as NWN's engine is, there just simply are things it can't do or are a serious pain to make work.



Being able to integrate those from the beginning has some major advantages, particularly in speed. Who doesn't want a faster engine? Reducing 2DA conflicts (we already have a partial plan to essentially remove the 2DA system, possibly using SQLite to handle far more dynamic databases and allowing for the importing of old 2DA files into the database at run-time), expanding the graphical possibilities, enhancing the ability to mod it... Those are the goals here.



Faster and easier for players, more powerful and flexible for builders, most stable for administrators, and most of all, open. A community engine that can do what the community wants. Sure, it sounds pretty well out there, but all the building blocks are here. They're lying around; OGRE for rendering, a dozen physics systems, GUIs, modules, custom content, database systems, resource loaders.



Everything we need. Just a matter of putting it together. With careful planning and the combined knowledge of even just a few of the people here, does that really sound so impossible? No, I think impossible is a case of mistaken identity here. It was just unlikely.