first time playing: spot/listen question effect on npc's

[Legacy_triphopscott]

               i guess the question is for all 3 campeigns

is spot or listen worth spending points in? im not doing anything online, i just want to experience for story lines since i missed out on it. is there any enemy npc that use hide that would make spot/listen useful in any of the 3 campeigns?

i had read some faq about it, some dont mention it at all, some say its not needed for the OC, is it needed for any of the campeigns? not interested in heavy spoilers, a yay or nay and which campeign it is needed for would be more than appreciated! thanks so much!!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               You probably won't find any creatures that actually use stealth mode in any of the campaigns (don't recall any myself anyway) but there is still value in those skills for all campaigns.

Keep in mind that Spot and Listen check against a creature's Hide and Move Silently (respectively) skill levels so even though they may be using invisibility or sanctuary your toon will still be able to target them with sufficient skill levels in the detection skills depending on the creature's default blueprint (and often customized by module designers, especially bosses).  IIRC Greater Sanctuary is the one concealment that cannot be pierced using the Spot or Listen skill set (GS was originally called etherealness which is an unusual form of concealment, but its effect can be sometimes modified by custom scripting).

In SoU, there is one quest in the beginning of the campaign in which Spot has particular value.

But, as you already seem aware, in PvP it becomes extremely important especially against sneakers.

My own rule of thumb, for what it's worth, is to either max them both or ignore them both.  The check is still a dice roll so even with low/no skill rank investment, you may still win the detection given enough time (one roll every 6 realtime secs).  Also, both are wisdom-based, so typically clerics, druids and monks (for example)  will gain significant modifiers by their inherent characteristics.

Check the NWN wiki to acquaint yourself with the nuances of how the mechanics of the skill perform.

...and...

Welcome aboard!  Have a great time playing a wonderful and eternal D&D game!

edit: omg... typos galore '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 23 juillet 2013 - 01:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_triphopscott]

               thanks a ton!

yea im not super familiar with the games detailed mechanics... been learning baldurs gate 2's  mechanics and been noticing a different in the different d&d rule sets. but feel semi comfortable with some of the basics of it.

thanks for the forum welcome! was using game faqs for all my BG2 questions and realized the boards there were minimal and mostly dormant for the NWN's. then remembering the dedicated multiplayer and modding community they had for them I found this place which worked conveniently with the dragonage and mass effect subscriptions!

definitely will be using the bioware forum more often!

thanks again!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Just a couple quick notes on this topic.

First, the Spot skill will not help you detect invisible creatures at all. Spot's primary value is in finding creatures in stealth mode by overcoming their Hide skill. As HipMaestro notes, there are also some situations when the Spot skill is used to find inanimate things, although conventionally the Search skill is used for that. On the other hand, a high Listen skill can help detect invisible creatures, as they might still make enough noise to be heard. A creature who has been "heard" but is still invisible cannot be targeted with many ranged attacks that require line-of-sight, including spells that require a target.

Though your post implies you will be playing the unmodified OCs, I think it's worth noting that many modules use modified NPC AIs, which help the NPCs to react more realistically. A common mod that will generally make NPCs smarter is Tony K's Henchman and Battle AI Mod. I mention it here because, among many other improvements, it allows NPCs who have points invested in stealth skills to go into stealth mode if they sense danger. In modules with this sort of improved AI, the Spot and Listen skills can be quite useful.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               The answer depends in part on what kind of character you are playing, and what your other skill options are.

Even though there are not a lot of cases in OC/SoU/HotU where Spot is going to be highly valuable, if I were making a character to spend a lot of time in Detect Mode scouting, I would want to have the Spot skill in the few cases where it was useful.

Unless you wanted to skimp on INT, a pure Rogue has plenty of skill points to fit in Spot.  For 10 pts/level, you can max out: Move Silently, Hide In Shadows, Search, Listen, Spot, Open Locks, Disable Traps, Set Traps, Tumble, Use Magic Device.  If I had an 11th point (Human Thief with 14 INT), I'd probably add Persuade, Lore, or maybe Craft Trap.  If I had less than 10 pts/level, Spot or Set Traps would be the first two candidates to drop off the list.

Points are a little bit tighter for a Ranger.  But for 6 pts/level, you could max out: Discipline, Move Silently, Hide In Shadows, Listen, Search, Spot.  I figure Concentration is less of a concern since Ranger spells are more about buffing before combat rather than casting during combat (and there is only 1 case of an enemy using Taunt in all the three official campaigns).  I don't recall that Animal Friendship has great use.  On the other hand, Craft Trap and Set Trap could be of great use- you could replace Search and Spot with Craft Trap and Set Trap, and rely on a henchman for Detect Mode.

If you are short on skill points though, and scouting isn't a primary aspect of your character, you probably won't miss Spot in the (unmodified) official campaigns.  Of the three Detect Mode skills, you will probably get the least amount of use out of Spot.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_triphopscott]

               wow thanks for the input, that really helps me with my char build!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

MrZork wrote...
Just a couple quick notes on this topic. 

First, the Spot skill will not help you detect invisible creatures at all. Spot's primary value is in finding creatures in stealth mode by overcoming their Hide skill.

But apparently there is a Spot check versus a (standard) sanctuaried PC.

The wiki "claims" that a sanctuaried creature cannot be heard, so that means no Listen check.  But whenever I don Sanctuary and attempt to run through a mob there are always a few that chase while the rest stand where they are.  None of the mob are true seers (in the example) or using any other magical form of creature detection, but there is definitely a dice roll occurring against the effect for each NPC.  I just wish I could figure out if it's on their heartbeat (ea 6 secs) or some other interval.

One difference in detecting a sanctuaried PC compared to a heard invisible one is that once detected the sanctuaried PC is detected for good and the toon is exposed regardless of what action it performs, at least that is what is happening with vanilla v1.69 for me.  However, the heard invisibles that can be targeted close up regain their invisible, non-targetable status when the PC moves out of range (seems it only detects within the 3 meter melee range, but perhaps greater distance with higher skill).  Greater Sanctuary seems to provide complete impunity for the PC until it expires or it instigates a hostile action... at least on the default version it does.  

I'd be interested to read others testing results as well and if/how the detection mechanics for invisibility, sanctuary and Grtr Sanctuary can customized by scripting.  The wiki does not address the nuances of sanctuaried PCs in much detail, unfortunately.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mystery X]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

The wiki "claims" that a sanctuaried creature cannot be heard, so that means no Listen check.  But whenever I don Sanctuary and attempt to run through a mob there are always a few that chase while the rest stand where they are.  None of the mob are true seers (in the example) or using any other magical form of creature detection, but there is definitely a dice roll occurring against the effect for each NPC.  I just wish I could figure out if it's on their heartbeat (ea 6 secs) or some other interval.

There is a saving throw for Sanctuary.  Perhaps the mobs who chase your sanctuaried PC are the ones who make the saving throw?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Mystery X wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...

The wiki "claims" that a sanctuaried creature cannot be heard, so that means no Listen check.  But whenever I don Sanctuary and attempt to run through a mob there are always a few that chase while the rest stand where they are.  None of the mob are true seers (in the example) or using any other magical form of creature detection, but there is definitely a dice roll occurring against the effect for each NPC.  I just wish I could figure out if it's on their heartbeat (ea 6 secs) or some other interval.

There is a saving throw for Sanctuary.  Perhaps the mobs who chase your sanctuaried PC are the ones who make the saving throw?

Yep. It's a Will save. If any creature makes their Will save, Sanctuary has no effect on them and they can still see you.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Mystery X wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...
The wiki "claims" that a sanctuaried creature cannot be heard, so that means no Listen check.  But whenever I don Sanctuary and attempt to run through a mob there are always a few that chase while the rest stand where they are.  None of the mob are true seers (in the example) or using any other magical form of creature detection, but there is definitely a dice roll occurring against the effect for each NPC.  I just wish I could figure out if it's on their heartbeat (ea 6 secs) or some other interval.

There is a saving throw for Sanctuary.  Perhaps the mobs who chase your sanctuaried PC are the ones who make the saving throw?

Yep. It's a Will save. If any creature makes their Will save, Sanctuary has no effect on them and they can still see you.

Ahhh...  so they are rolling a save rather than a skill check.  End result: lucky wins... even the weak-willed ones.

 I seldom use it unless I am getting overwhelmed as a low-level cleric biting off more than can be chewed... so... very good to understand the limitations. 

Thanks MysteryX & Gregor for clearing the detection aspects up on that effect.  '>