Charismatic Archer?

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               Somebody here said that HotU ends at level 23. No it doesn't. It ends at around level 27 or 28.
With my Rogue AA build, I told Dorna to level only as Cleric, and she became quite a powerhouse. Since I didn't drink a Clarity potion, she had to take on Herodis by herself, and she won.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Sarielle]

               Great! I'll probably fire this up after work tonight. It's funny, after all these years, after all the very pretty games I've played ... these still more than hold their own.

I'm guessing you guys are excited about the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition? '> I actually never played 'em, been putting it off since I heard that was coming out. Really looking forward to playing a Chaotic Stupid Wild Mage with some real life friends, lol.

EDIT: I'm not against a rogue in concept, Empyre; I just really enjoy my conversation skills! lol The combat in these games is secondary for me, as long as I'm not a super gimp.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Sarielle, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Luminus]

               

Sarielle wrote...

Would this allow for good persuade? I definitely like the idea of relying less heavily on buffing.

The bard also sounds interesting, but my last bard was a collossal failure (maybe because I didn't know how to play one, lol). Can you point me to a good build there?

As for henchmen, I usually took Deekin but I also like Dorna, but had never taken Xanos (so I thought I might this time). I don't have to, though. It's been so long I've forgotten what all of them say now anyways, which is the main reason I take henchmen. '>

Put 12-14 in Charisma and maximize the Persuade skill. This is not possible with Arcane Archer or Sorcerer, unfortunately, as they are not class skills.

With the Rogue, you don't rely on buffs at all. Except if you buy/find scrolls/wands of Protection from Alignment. You have tons of skills that are always on.

The Bard has much limited skill points, half of the Rogue's actually. The Bard is an utility/support class. Buffing himself and others, and he relies on self-buffing very much.
More than the Cleric/Druid/Sorcerers. Because Clerics/Druids can rely on melee if their spells fail.
And the Sorcerer can summon all shorts of monsters or just blast anything into oblivion before they get close to him. Or you know, cast Time Stop.

The Rogue is both a huge damage dealer to those not immune to sneak attacks and has tons of skills you can maximize for lots of fun.
Hide, Move Silently, Persuade, Tumble, Disable Trap, Open Lock, Search, Use Magic Device, Lore, Appraise. That's with an Elf with 14 INT.
You only need 1 Shadowdancer level to make him awesome.

Also Elves are perfect for Rogues as they get Longbow and can search automatically, plus +2 Dex. That -2 Con is unimportant. It's just 1 HP/level less. You can fix it by taking Toughness or just being a little careful. '>
Plus +2 to saves versus mind-affecting spells.

For companions, I strongly suggest taking Dorna and tell her to only level as a Cleric. You do all the trap stuff. She has great HP and saves, can Turn Undead, heavy armor and shields to tank and she can buff you and heal you.
Plus her good saves are Fortitude and Will, you know the ones that you lack. Plus nice Dwarf bonuses. Perfect.

Don't bother with Xanos. He is a Half-Orc Barbarian with 13 STR (lol). And a Sorcerer. You don't want any spellcasting companion in NwN1, believe me. Their AI sucks immensely and they will get you killed. Even with Tony K's AI mod to improve it, it's too risky and random for me. I want complete control with my casters.

Don't take Deekin. He is a Bard/Rogue, I believe. Again, you do all the trap stuff. And his low hp and armor will get you both killed too many times to count.

For HotU. Take Linu, she is an elven Cleric and Daelan. Deekin improves as he gets Red Dragon Disciple but still, crappy armor and weapon proficiencies, I think.

Later, take Valen (he is romanceable) and Paladin Aribeth. Two uber-tanks that compliment your skills and protect you as you do the other stuff.
Nathyrra is a mess. Rogue/Wizard/Assassin. Redundant, hate NPC casters, Assassin is useless if you don't micromanage him.

I once saw an epic build that was simply a Rogue/SD/Fighter(?) halfling using Shortbows. And I have soloed HotU with a STR-based Katana-using Monk/Assassin. (Basically I recreated Tatsumaru from Tenchu 2 for pure fun, didn't care for optimization.)
So I know for a fact that just a Rogue is simply great.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Luminus, 17 novembre 2012 - 12:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sarielle]

               AHMIGAD. Too many cool choices, LOL. What is the full starting stat breakdown for that rogue archer?

12-14 CHA
14 INT

I'm assuming 18 DEX but what about the rest? '>

I don't mind sticking with Dorna. I think I took Deekin my last playthrough and I always liked Dorna, so I wouldn't be against that at all. I always want to try Nathyrra but I agree ... she's so bad, lol.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I wouldn't recommend the rogue archer.  It's practically useless against enemies immune to sneaks/criticals...which typically happen to be the toughest boss enemies.  And even 5-10 damage reduction/resistance completely ruins it in those cases.

Basically, it lets you destroy stuff that is easy to beat anyway.  So...yeah.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Sarielle]

               ^ You don't think UMD is enough compensation for that? Genuine question, not rhetorical. '> I've never played a rogue at all so I admit I'm intrigued by it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               No, because at higher levels the wands and scrolls just don't have high enough saves or damage.

A melee rogue can get away with a bit more since melee weapons typically have more damage by default (especially with the +10 enhancement), archers don't get that.  Which is a flaw in the standard game, but one you have to deal with.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Sarielle wrote...

Would this allow for good persuade?

The DCs in game are set so the average character which takes that skill cross class still had a chance to success. Therefore *maxing* these skills, especially when you are charisma based character that can cast Eagle's splendor on self is a bit needless. What MagicalMaster wrote is really good build of OC, the inclusion of the skill focuses is however definitely waste since you will max persuade/intimidate every second level so you will have already 100% chance for these conversation choices. Curse song and Lingering Song will be better choices instead or Dodge and Mobility which would allow to take one level of Shadow Dancer.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:21 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sarielle]

               Hmm, OK. Welllll ... where would you recommend that Shadow Dancer level on the bard? And, what is the goal for getting that? HIPS I assume?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Sarielle, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               HiPS would be the goal, yeah.  If you take it below 20 you'll lose an AB point, though.  Theoretically better to take it after, but then you have less time to use it.  I'm not really sure if it's needed for your build.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

HiPS would be the goal, yeah.  If you take it below 20 you'll lose an AB point, though.  Theoretically better to take it after, but then you have less time to use it.  I'm not really sure if it's needed for your build.

Indeed, if taken pre-epic there is 1BAB loss. But this isn't big deal really. 1AB point isn't problem, not in OC generally where creature's AC is very low and not at all with AA which has ton of bonus AB with bow. You get additional attacks one level later but thats not problem I think, you still get 4attacks per round.

It isn't maybe needed (but thinking this way, what is?) but there is absolutely no loss if you take SD at epic levels, so why not take it, HIPS might be usefull in tough battles.

Also, taking second shadowdancer level wouldn't be so pointless, uncanny dodge when character has high dexterity (not so important in OC, but again - what is?) and evasion which is certainly usefull, then the earlier the better.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 09:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Luminus]

               Hmm, I thought I would miss lots of posts, since I had to go to sleep.

Indeed, the pure rogue archer works less well but that's mainly because of the stupid bow enchantment restrictions. You cannot enchant bows as much as melee weapons in the games.
So it's the archer part that makes it less useful, not the rogue part.

If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.
I can imagine the tediousness of recasting buffs all the time with a Bard. Also you will be resting even more often than my Sorc since he could destroy most stuff with Time Stops, Isaacs for offense and Premonition etc for defense.

The best compromise, would be Rogue/Bard or Wizard/AA. Alternating with Rogue now and then to keep the nice skills maxed. That way you combine my rogue suggestion and the AA suggestions.
If you get Bard levels, you get more skills and Bard Song, but the Wizard helps you not get a multiclass xp penalty with the Elf.

The Rogue/caster/AA doesn't rely on any buffs, unlike the Bard/AA. The build from Empyre in the first page is probably the best one, as you don't rely on Rogues or buffs and you remain effective, while doing great damage with Sneak Attack to those weak to it. And for anything else, there's Imbue Arrow, UMD and companions.

Though you don't need Spot as enemies never hide, I believe. And I would take a Shadowdancer level absolutely in case of emergency, as soon as possible. Spellcraft is decent as it gives you bonus to saves against spells, though not necessary.

Also with a Rogue/X/AA you don't rely on Rogue companions so you become even better protected by tanks. The ones I suggested in my post.

While the Bard/AA build is probably better with the tons of buffs, it's more tedious and difficult to play than the Rogue/x/AA build. But that's the case with all casters.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Luminus, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:29 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Luminus wrote...

If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.

Posting more later, but...no.  You don't rely on many buffs.

You basically have Cat's Grace, Improved Invis...and that's about it.  Your main "buff" is Bard/Curse Song and you're not very reliant on that either except for tougher fights.  You're basically an archer with bard song and maybe a few other random buffs.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Luminus wrote...

If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.

Posting more later, but...no.  You don't rely on many buffs.

You basically have Cat's Grace, Improved Invis...and that's about it.  Your main "buff" is Bard/Curse Song and you're not very reliant on that either except for tougher fights.  You're basically an archer with bard song and maybe a few other random buffs.

MM is right. With Bard/AA you get exactly same power (excluding sneak attacks) and buffs are on top of that. Also most buffs are on long term. You basically cast mage armor, ghostly visage, cats grace and improved invisibility and then you only singing. Possibly you can cast haste, but at lower levels its really short and later in game you can get perma haste items.

Bard song is shorter but AA actually don't rely on that, still the minute is the duration of an average fight. And you can always take lingering song which isn't so bad investment in OC where you can acces lasting inspiration only near before the end of the game.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 06:37 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sarielle]

               Neng the elf bard has been born. '> Unfortunately she's not as persuasive as she thought, because she ended up failing the "Shut up or die" roll on the crazy prophet there in Hilltop and uh...sort of killed him.

Whoops.

EDIT: And lest I come across as ungrateful, I'm having a blast guys. Thanks so much for all the help. It added a layer to the character's personaltiy for me, lol.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Sarielle, 18 novembre 2012 - 12:41 .