Print Page - Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?

Bioware Archive V2 => Hordes of the Underdark Official Campaign => Topic started by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 09, 2015, 07:57:25 am

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 09, 2015, 07:57:25 am

I've been having a lot of discussions with a woman named Lilura lately -- she has an excellent blog (found here: http://lilura1.blogspot.com/ ) where she's been featuring several things NWN related. That includes a seven part recapping of HotU, a *34* part recounting of The Aielund Saga, and now a recapping of the original campaign. Her intention is to also feature more community modules in an effort to showcase them to people and help attract new players to the community (basically, make NWN look interesting even at this point -- which, of course, it is).

She's also aware of the fact that I'm working on improving Aielund (fixing some bugs, cleaning up some typos, making some tweaks to a few sections of the campaign) and has seen some of my other work and thus made an interesting proposal. She started off by saying

Baldur's Gate is a clunky old RPG, yet there are still many people playing it due to the SCS overhauls it's received (even new players) - there are dedicated forums. Dragon Age: Origins is taken seriously by RtWP aficionados due to RAVAge, Faster Combat and Advanced tactics (tactics framework extender).

and suggested that maybe I work on a similar overhaul for HotU. I admit I've never played BG so I have no knowledge of the former...and the thought of playing through DA:O a second made me want to gouge my eyes out -- though it's possible that extensive overhauls managed to fix many of the issues it had (particularly in regards to combat). Because let's face it: Bioware may generally be good at story and setting, but it's usually sucked at mechanics and combat.

Along those lines, the official Bioware campaigns can basically be beaten by a strength based wizard (as I'm sure we all know). And no, I'm not talking about Webshaman's Melee Mage build ( http://home.comcast....uild301814.html). The idea therefore would be to ramp up the difficulty of the campaign and make the boss fights...well, actually proper boss fights. Stuff that would be done might include...

- beef up the power of mobs in general (some need less tweaking than others but most stuff is made of tissue paper and can't hit the broad side of a barn).

- make the boss fights more engaging (and difficult) with actual unique mechanics.

- tweak some particularly...problematic...spells (IGMS, Harm, and (Mass) Heal would be three prime examples).

- tone down some gear (like, probably only be able to enchant weapons to +6 in Chapter 2 and +8 in Chapter 3, for example -- exact values are certainly open to debate but that would be the general idea)

- alter a few mechanics -- ranged characters generally suck in NWN by default and HotU doesn't do it any favors with the forge and things like the Black Pearl. Would be open to suggestions about many other things along these lines.

- possibly do some things like allow any companion from Chapter 1 to be able to be brought into Chapter 2 and beyond and/or allow a party of 4-5 rather than 3.

- Allow user customization at the start regarding things like difficulty, romances, etc (which was directly mentioned as being inspired by Sanctum of the Archmage)

- Add in graphic improvements such as Project Q to give it a graphics facelift

At this point just passing along ideas that have been suggested to me without necessarily endorsing any quite yet while I consider them.

But you get the drift. The idea would be to make a replacement for the default HotU for people interested in better combat. And I'll state up front that my goal would not be to make a replacement that everyone thinks is perfect -- merely a replacement that everyone thinks is a significant improvement over the default. Aka, you might love 80% of what I do and hate the other 20%. While I'm sorry to hear that, someone else will love the 20% that you hate but themselves hate another 15%. Etc. Can't please everyone.

So, is this something that people would be interested in? I'd be perfectly fine not doing it (I have plenty of other projects on my plate)...but HotU is generally held in high regard as the best of the official campaigns and considered a good campaign in general compared to other RPGs. And it may help get new people interested more in NWN or revive the interest of former community members. Which is a goal all of us share.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Elhanan on February 09, 2015, 08:10:13 am

               Personally, I would prefer a proper remake of the OC as Bioware wished it to be, but lighter on containers. The updated storyline; not the one that got cut by Atari, WotC, etc.

In my mind, it is not the classics that need re-told, but the ones that should have been....

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on February 09, 2015, 09:04:39 am

HotU is fine, OC and SoU needs update much more.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Tarot Redhand on February 09, 2015, 12:08:58 pm

If I am reading this right the intention is to make the game harder without altering the graphics at all? Are you sure this would appeal to a new audience?

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_werelynx on February 09, 2015, 12:32:08 pm

HotU is more difficult than OC or SoU.

If one were to make improved OC -> graphics, storyline, containers, new creatures, better tilesets

it would be much better than adjusting difficulty of HotU. Not all players want to have more difficult battles and if they do they turn up the difficulty.

What could be done: allowing Hardcore rules, but without harming neutral/friend factions reputations when you use AoE spells. That's the reason I stray from Hardcore dnd

Back at the old vault someone published a draft of what Bioware originally intended to do with OC plot. Basically they wanted to have "insanity" systems from using old ones' magic.

Project Q campaigns might be a good start or hindrance if you want to use CEP for example.

Of course what you mod is ultimately your call

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 09, 2015, 12:50:49 pm

If I am reading this right the intention is to make the game harder without altering the graphics at all?

It would also involve any graphical overhaul that's reasonable by trying to include something like Project Q. I'm not well versed in that subject at the moment so would need to look it up.

Are you sure this would appeal to a new audience?

Nope! Hence this thread.

HotU is more difficult than OC or SoU.

While true, that doesn't actually make it remotely difficult. Making $2 an hour is more than making $1.50 an hour, but that doesn't mean it's a reasonable wage

it would be much better than adjusting difficulty of HotU. Not all players want to have more difficult battles and if they do they turn up the difficulty.

I am referring to playing on "Hardcore" rules already. The "very difficult" setting or whatever basically does nothing -- just doubles the base weapon damage of NPCs. So if an orc hits you with a longsword for 1d8 + 15 damage (19.5 average), very difficult means he hits you for 2d8 + 15 damage (24 average). So that means nothing past the first few levels and it's pretty broken for the first few levels (because an enemy with a greatsword does 4d6 without a strength modifier).

Even on the highest difficulty settings, HotU is still very easy. It may not seem that way to you, but presumably you aren't the type of person who plays Mass Effect on Hardcore/Insanity or Dragon Age on Hard/Nightmare.

And that's not meant as a slight against you, to be clear -- just that I know that I wouldn't be as interested in the ME or DA series if the only difficulty was "normal" like it is in HotU. I know many others would feel the same way. Some people care mostly about story, some people care mostly about engaging combat, some people care about both.

What could be done: allowing Hardcore rules, but without harming neutral/friend factions reputations when you use AoE spells. That's the reason I stray from Hardcore dnd

I've always thought that silly, yes, especially when many spells bypass that "restriction" anyway like Firebrand, IGMS, and Wail of the Banshee.

HotU is fine, OC and SoU needs update much more.

I would disagree that it's fine, but would agree OC and SoU would need it more.

Personally, I would prefer a proper remake of the OC as Bioware wished it to be, but lighter on containers. The updated storyline; not the one that got cut by Atari, WotC, etc.

At that point you're basically making a new module (not quite, but it would be significantly more work (like, at least five times more work, probably 10+ times more work) than bringing HotU more in line with modern standards for combat).

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Jfoxtail on February 09, 2015, 04:29:24 pm

Wow ~ a remake of Aielund and HoTU ? Someone enjoys playing with the crown jewels

I certainly wish you best of luck in all these endeavors. Its admirable to try.

My good hearted warning applies. Many fan-boi's will be highly critical of what you achieve. Have thick skin and let people know you are doing this out of respect and love of the game.

I think there have been a number of suggestions above that do fall close to the mark.

1) Graphical update perhaps starting with the Q campaigns ?

What possibly feels more clunky about NWN these days is the graphic representation as opposed to the difficulty. Reskins of monsters, weapons, and the protagonist as well as more robust tiles would potentially garner the greatest acclaim.

I honestly think most remaining players "love the mechanics for what they are being D&D fans " ; purely the graphics are now the hindrance. This address the very point that the fans will still play BG and its sprites not withstanding the graphics. They love the mechanics and party.

2) Difficultly level.

Interesting that. It is a balance of course. There are certain fights ( (1)Grimy and clan (2) Certain golems on makers isle (3) the maker with Tony K AI) that already have some degree challenge. Depends on the build of course. More common place or routine challenge may be best left to some sort of "tactics" mod if possible ?

You may then mute a number of critics my allowing a player to "bar slide" difficulty across a number with a tactics mod as opposed to a re-write? Or 3 choice tactics.. (1) Boss (2) Boss + mini boss (3) General ???

3) Henchmen and interactions

I would honestly say that perhaps the one thing in HoTU that could be improved would be party banter and potentially henchmen.There is no question Deekin's banter is universally beloved ( I am here) or hated (others).

The Underdark henchmen are strong enough personality wise to require little in the way of re-work unless it was to change their level up mechanics making them more compliant with the rules as well as useful in combat; that does infer an AI upgrade which Tony has completed to a mostly satisfactory degree. More triggers for quest conversations, more banter, more aha and Haha??

I think frankly this is why Bioware, Obsidan, and other game companies constantly proclaim "the spiritual successor of the Baldur's Gate Games".

I have no idea if it is even possible but taking one of the OC companions with you to the underdark and or adding an interesting companion or two in the underdark would possibly give you more critical acclaim.

I think that one of the "early days" of HoTU let downs was the lack of more henchmen choices. A Drow cleric of Ellistrae ? A Ranger vis a vis Drizt ?

Good luck !

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Lilura on February 09, 2015, 10:16:17 pm

Whoah, I really didn't expect you to lay out these (incomplete) thoughts so quickly, Magical Master, but I'm glad you did. I can't really set aside time for HotU right now, my hands being full with the original campaign, plus your APS & SotH. Hopefully this topic will be fruitful for you to gauge interest, and bounce ideas around with all the HotU experts.

I was gonna say on my blog that Shadows of Undrentide would benefit from similar attention, the protagonist is the same one and many people import, plus you lose your SoU items in HotU as part of the plot. SoU is well-crafted, but the tight combat sort of drops off towards the end.

The original campaign is unredeemable without heavy restorative/redesigning which would pass far beyond the bounds of a mere tactics overhaul/facelift. Still, it would be awesome if something like that is oneday done, since it's the flagship of NWN (unfortunately).

Facelift-wise, someone has already infused the official content with Project Q (Q Campaigns), but I hit a showstopper bug and it isn't a full infusion, anyway (no +sounds, +portraits, familiar fixes etc).

I suppose you'll include (if you do this) Henchman Inventory & Battle AI Mod, balancing encounters in light of the increased control the player has, obviously..?

For me, HotU is still my preferred campaign, the priority one to overhaul/facelift.. but that's because I simply love the overall dungeon design (UMI, UMIII, Chapter 2, parts of C3), atmosphere (music, voicesets, variation of locales), characters (Deekin!), level range (good for builders - experimentation) and the replayability/meta-gameability it brings to the table. It's got the framework there already for you to employ your mad scripting skillz on, whereas the other two - no offense to anyone - are a bit low-key, and somewhat of a doddle in comparison.

For those who consider HotU to already be hard enough, or something like that, can I just say I'm no expert on NWN and was able to beat HotU on D&D Hardcore rules quite easily with a sub-optimal build and playstyle largely neglected by the devs (Archer), plus I even adventured with a party of "archers" (Deekin, Sharwyn, Nathyrra and Aribeth all used ranged weapons), and still pretty much just facerolled it, as can be read about here.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Bondari the Reloader on February 09, 2015, 11:37:11 pm

I'm probably not the kind of player this would be aimed at since I think the combat system in NWN is just fine (once you get over the fact that you can't directly control your companions). I do like the idea of rebalancing the game for a party of 4 (like DA) or maybe even 6 (like BG). I love Deekin, Valen, and Nathyrra, and I was disappointed that you couldn't adventure with all three of them. Add in the option of taking the Undermountain companions through the whole game and that would open up a world of new party combinations. I would still hope for some sort of difficulty slider (since I'm not a Hardcore player by any means), but the boss fights would obviously need to be altered to account for the additional party member(s). Customization is an important feature for me in RPGs, and improving the party system might be a way to attract more new players.

Also, as others have mentioned, SoU could use a similar treatment, especially since it uses the same player character as HotU. While I think HotU is a much better game, players who like the continuity of using the same hero would benefit from any improvements to the first game. As for the OC, well... that would be a huge undertaking to improve.

Regardless of what you decide to do, best of luck to you!

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 10, 2015, 01:09:34 am

Wow ~ a remake of Aielund and HoTU ? Someone enjoys playing with the crown jewels

That's basically the hope, yes (to be clear, for anyone not aware, Savant gave me his blessing to polish up some parts of Aielund).

1) Graphical update perhaps starting with the Q campaigns ?

What possibly feels more clunky about NWN these days is the graphic representation as opposed to the difficulty. Reskins of monsters, weapons, and the protagonist as well as more robust tiles would potentially garner the greatest acclaim.

The irony is that this sort of stuff is technically the stuff I know the least about in NWN. But yes, as much of that as reasonable would be done.

2) Difficultly level.

Interesting that. It is a balance of course. There are certain fights ( (1)Grimy and clan (2) Certain golems on makers isle (3) the maker with Tony K AI) that already have some degree challenge. Depends on the build of course. More common place or routine challenge may be best left to some sort of "tactics" mod if possible ?

You may then mute a number of critics my allowing a player to "bar slide" difficulty across a number with a tactics mod as opposed to a re-write? Or 3 choice tactics.. (1) Boss (2) Boss + mini boss (3) General ???

I'm open to suggestions, though my inclination is to basically just make "normal" and "hard."

I have no idea if it is even possible but taking one of the OC companions with you to the underdark and or adding an interesting companion or two in the underdark would possibly give you more critical acclaim.

Allowing the OC companions to go to the Underdark would be entirely possible, yes. I suppose I'm concerned about adding too much dialogue/new companions because at that point you're going from "improving the combat" to changing Bioware's story/characters. Not sure what to think of that.

The original campaign is unredeemable without heavy restorative/redesigning which would pass far beyond the bounds of a mere tactics overhaul/facelift. Still, it would be awesome if something like that is oneday done, since it's the flagship of NWN (unfortunately).

Something to consider, but like you said that would be zounds beyond reworking some bits of HotU. Also more controversial, I would imagine.

I suppose you'll include (if you do this) Henchman Inventory & Battle AI Mod, balancing encounters in light of the increased control the player has, obviously..?

Something along those lines, yes, and most likely that (as well as adding some additional controls I've created to better control your party).

For those who consider HotU to already be hard enough, or something like that, can I just say I'm no expert on NWN and was able to beat HotU on D&D Hardcore rules quite easily with a sub-optimal build and playstyle largely neglected by the devs (Archer), plus I even adventured with a party of "archers" (Deekin, Sharwyn, Nathyrra and Aribeth all used ranged weapons), and still pretty much just facerolled it, as can be read about here.

Pretty much (and 'm still trying to come to grips with the idea of Aribeth using a ranged wepaon).

I'm probably not the kind of player this would be aimed at since I think the combat system in NWN is just fine (once you get over the fact that you can't directly control your companions).

Keep in mind the combat system is very different from the combat difficulty and the latter would be the target. For example, making a "story" version of HotU where every mob had 1 HP, 1 AB, and 1 damage would not change the combat system but would very much change the combat difficulty.

Regardless of what you decide to do, best of luck to you!

Thanks, and the feedback is appreciated!

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Jfoxtail on February 10, 2015, 01:36:17 pm

Re: Companions.

It wouldn't have to be the OC companions but as noted more companions and more choices were the only real lament of HoTU.

It was obvious that the companions of the underdark were again somewhat substandard ; unusually so because Bioware generally made good companions.

~ Valen as a tank / damage dealer. He was the best of all and simplest to manage. Good characterization for female romance

~ Aribeth as a tank / damage dealer. She too was ok albiet coming late in the adventure.

~ Nathy - i think I recall she was actually an illegal character by the rule set (feats). The entire Wizard part of her build seemed "rushed into" just because some players would need an arcane henchman. Really she should have been rogue / fighter / assassin or rogue / ranger / assassin.

~ Deekin - beloved or abhored. He was a most effective companion and uses arcane items reasonably well; but his characterization was polarizing and therefore Nathy probably got wizard levels.

Needed:

1) a pure mage or mage heavy multiclass.. I assume somewhere in the underdark we can find a mage LOL

2) a pure cleric or cleric heavy multiclass... I assume neutral interestingly. The entire concept is rich in potential. A powerful cleric of Waukeen on a divine mission to explore trade in the Underdark.....

3) One or more of the OC companions ...perhaps just the one you bring with you vis a vis Halister.

...and of course plot conversation thereof and banter...

No simple task !

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Jfoxtail on February 10, 2015, 01:36:43 pm

Ohh and balanced to have the party of 4

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_rogueknight333 on February 10, 2015, 09:22:08 pm

It has been awhile since I played any of the official content for NWN, and I am not certain how interested I would be in re-trying even a revamped version given all the new stuff out there. On the other hand, I do remember HOTU as a campaign that could have been very good (IMHO - obviously there are a lot of people who think it is pretty great as is) if only the loot handouts were not so excessive and preposterously high magic, and so many battles were not laughably easy (which not only made the game uninteresting from the viewpoint of combat challenge but was even somewhat immersion breaking given that a lot of these encounters were against foes who were supposed to be some of the most awesomely powerful monsters in the Realms). And both those problems would be relatively simple fixes. Indeed, simply reducing the magic level of the available items, and nothing else, would constitute a major improvement, since that issue and the combat difficulty (or lack thereof, I should say) are not unrelated.

I am doubtful it is a good idea to alter the henchmen options too greatly. In theory it would be nice, but to really do it right would require adding in a lot of additional dialogue and possibly additional romance options, which would turn this revision into a much more massive project than you seem to have in mind. At least I think if players' option were between having, say, Valen/Nathyrra with lots of conversation and romance possibilities on the one hand, or a perhaps more mechanically useful henchman who never says much of anything on the other, that would be a choice that was more annoying than interesting.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 11, 2015, 12:00:25 am

~ Nathy - i think I recall she was actually an illegal character by the rule set (feats). The entire Wizard part of her build seemed "rushed into" just because some players would need an arcane henchman. Really she should have been rogue / fighter / assassin or rogue / ranger / assassin.

Yes, especially if you used the "feature" where she instantly got leveled up to 28 or something (when you were level 19-20) by telling her to focus on being an assassin prior to her leveling past 1. I just started Chapter 2 with a level 6 character and she become a 1 wizard/11 rogue. Just, y'know, twice my level. Doing the same thing with a level 20 character made her a 1 wizard/11 rogue/16 assassin.

What do you mean by "need an arcane henchmen" in this case, though? I mean, you could easily solo HotU with a pure fighter or pure rogue if you wanted. Which sort of becomes a general question: what "should" an arcane companion provide? Summons? Buffs? AoE? Single target nukes? A bit of everything?

And both those problems would be relatively simple fixes. Indeed, simply reducing the magic level of the available items, and nothing else, would constitute a major improvement, since that issue and the combat difficulty (or lack thereof, I should say) are not unrelated.

Indeed. Especially when you're level 19-20 and running around with a +10 sword with 2d6 bonus damage, keen, haste, regen, and true seeing. Fix some of that and hammer down a few spells (like those 240 damage IGMSes at level 20) and suddenly a lot more of the combat would be reasonable, I think.

To be clear, you COULD design monsters meant for level 20s using +10 swords with all those bonuses and casters dealing 480 damage per round...but obviously Bioware did not.

I am doubtful it is a good idea to alter the henchmen options too greatly. In theory it would be nice, but to really do it right would require adding in a lot of additional dialogue and possibly additional romance options, which would turn this revision into a much more massive project than you seem to have in mind. At least I think if players' option were between having, say, Valen/Nathyrra with lots of conversation and romance possibilities on the one hand, or a perhaps more mechanically useful henchman who never says much of anything on the other, that would be a choice that was more annoying than interesting.

I agree especially with the latter sentence.

For the former, *if* there is sufficient interest, I might try to assemble a *small* team (like probably 3-4 people max) to work on some of that. Basically, while I'm confident I can handle the mechanical/balance/combat side of things, I have far less faith in my ability to write quality enough dialogue...let alone a halfway decent romance. But if people better at writing and custom content (for the graphics part) wanted to chip in, that could make a larger project more manageable, both in terms of time investment and ability to do justice to what is needed.

But, like I said, this is mostly brainstorming and gauging interest for now. Nothing would even happen in this regard for at least a month or two, got other stuff I need to finish first.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Eternal Phoenix on February 13, 2015, 04:58:23 pm

HotU is fine, OC and SoU needs update much more.

This.

Original Campaign needs the additions that were excluded when the whole plot and features were changed.

Shadows of Undrentide needs a complete revamp.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Lilura on February 13, 2015, 11:10:12 pm

Original Campaign needs the additions that were excluded when the whole plot and features were changed.

I'm currently plodding through the OC, and it seems to me addressing it's fundamental flaws is gonna take infinitely more time and effort than thugging out HotU (hopefully I haven't been too critical of the OC, I haven't yet commented on the things I like about it, like Helm's Hold coming up..). But then, if the community is happy to undertake a more ambitious project - implementing things like the "madness mechanic" - I say great!

To Magical Master:

Do you think any overhaul should be packaged into an exe, so it can just be downloaded and double-clicked to install (optional for manual, too)? I think that would help bring it to the masses, people also don't blink at large downloads these days - overhauls for many current gen RPGs are massive. Just a thought..

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_PracticalKat on February 14, 2015, 07:41:48 am

               Not having read all the above posts, I for one would definitely be interested. I went from the OC to fan - made modules, and the latter are so much better! Bring it on â˜º

I like Insane difficulty, but NPC damage dialled down to 140%. More strength to your arm!!

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 14, 2015, 08:17:19 am

it seems to me addressing it's fundamental flaws is gonna take infinitely more time and effort than thugging out HotU

Indeed. And time is the main factor -- only have so much time and already have far too much I want to do. Right now I'm feeling inclined to say that *this* remake is already up in the air and thus worrying about the OC is rather moot. Cross that bridge when we come to it.

Do you think any overhaul should be packaged into an exe, so it can just be downloaded and double-clicked to install (optional for manual, too)?

Well then. That's a bit trickier. I admit I hadn't thought about it much and figured the person would just download the mod and play that. But many people (and new people especially) won't have the "generic" hak files (stuff like Project Q that's universally used). Doing some kind of automatic install would, at a minimum, require permission from the authors from any CC I might use, though.

Also, I have absolutely no idea how to make an exe that would do that, so would need to learn (I know people have done similar stuff in the past so clearly it's doable).

Along those lines, if we'd be doing a custom install anyway, that would make it easier to include a custom hak if some feats were going to be changed. Hmm.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Lilura on February 14, 2015, 08:59:19 am

I think you should probably stop calling it "a remake", it's just a combat overhaul possibly with a facelift right? (ie, a mod)

http://en.wikipedia....deo_game_remake
http://en.wikipedia....eo_game_remakes

A Neverwinter Nights "remake" would be like remaking HotU in Electron or DA: Origins engines (and I don't think you want that, do you? That would be awful..).

Terms like "combat overhaul" or "revamp" and "tactics mod" are probably more accurate.

What I had in mind was something similar to Sword Coast Stratagems for Baldur's Gate, RAVAge for Origins, Co8 for Temple of Elemental Evil (though that's restoration, too), Full Combat Rebalance for The Witcher etc.

Akkei's Orcs: The Awakening of Arak-Hur uses an exe for installation, the content of which can also be unzipped and installed manually. It contains haks, but yeah, he obviously would have sought permission from the hak-maker.

The reason I bring up the exe is: think of teh casuals. They install NWN GoG, apply the cumulative 1.69 patch, they are probably not gonna want to manually install a bunch of haks and who knows what else just to try a combat overhaul for an old game.

Give them an exe to grab from Mod DB/Nexus/Vault whatevs, and people are much more likely to play it (manual option must always be avail for those who distrust exe or just don't like them). Project Q would be great (or even the Creatures override and a few other facelifty things would be great, too), but if you can't get the permission they aren't necessary, that was just icing on the cake.

The main thing is that the combat isn't a joke anymore.

I would put the OC on the backburner, it's got too many issues. It needs a full redesign and restoration, imo. Probably take years.. HotU arguably only has one glaring weakness, one which - looking at your A Peremptory Summons and SotH - you'd be qualified to address, given the time and more encouragement from the community.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 14, 2015, 10:10:27 am

I think you should probably stop calling it "a remake", it's just a combat overhaul possibly with a facelift right? (ie, a mod)

True, it's not Black Mesa, changed title to "revamp" instead.

Combat overhaul, AI improvement, minor graphical facelift, bug fixes (there are several, mainly related to the Knower of Names and romance), item overhaul, likely more companions.

One concern I do have about simply allowing the original campaign companions to go into Act 2 and Act 3 is that they won't have any ground comments (aka, I hit a trigger on the ground and say something) and they won't talk during a conversation. So either they'd be silent or I'd have to try to add dialogue.

The reason I bring up the exe is: think of teh casuals. They install NWN GoG, apply the cumulative 1.69 patch, they are probably not gonna want to manually install a bunch of haks and who knows what else just to try a combat overhaul for an old game.

Oh, I know. Like I said, originally I was just thinking they'd copy/paste a single mod file, wasn't considering the new players who wouldn't have the haks. Something to keep in mind.

Project Q would be great (or even the Creatures override and a few other facelifty things would be great, too), but if you can't get the permission they aren't necessary, that was just icing on the cake.

The problem isn't getting permission to use Q, the potential problem would be getting permission to bundle it in an exe. Version control might be a concern in that regard, don't want to overwrite a newer version of something in Q.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_werelynx on February 14, 2015, 12:12:44 pm

Also, I have absolutely no idea how to make an exe that would do that, so would need to learn (I know people have done similar stuff in the past so clearly it's doable).

Go to your "utils" folder in your main game folder and find nwcontbuild.exe

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 14, 2015, 10:02:08 pm

Pfft, makefiles or bust!

Thanks.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_werelynx on February 15, 2015, 03:33:11 pm

Could I ask you to introduce new classes/races/subraces/domains as well?

You could use Eye of Gruumsh and the other class(disciple/monk of sth) that was partially developed by Bioware (which shadooow discovered and included in his patch) or even include some classes from PRC (those would need to be balanced though).

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_WhiZard on February 15, 2015, 10:29:20 pm

The unimplemented BioWare classes were known about even before the 1.69 release. The old, old forums had speculation about when BioWare would finish them. Unfortunately, the premium modules did not bring in enough zots (as George Zoeller would say).

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on February 15, 2015, 11:50:35 pm

The unimplemented BioWare classes were known about even before the 1.69 release. The old, old forums had speculation about when BioWare would finish them. Unfortunately, the premium modules did not bring in enough zots (as George Zoeller would say).

Of course you and your buddy The Krit knew that even before NWN was released. Yet you kept that for yourselves. Of course that those two classess were planned and then canceled was known, but I was there all that time and nobody before me actually found out these two classes are from 80% implemented and hardcoded in engine and all whats needed is to unlock them. Yes those speculations was there, yet nobody found how before me. PRC who had these classes inside them implemented them from scratch using different methods (like creature weapon to simlate unarmed dmg for shou and some feature didnt worked there (gruumsh dodge ac).

I dont really care that much, I know that I know, peoples like you will always claim that they knew it/did it long time before. I dont care. What is more insteresting is that even after the discovery of these two classess, there is no mention about that in NWN wiki. I thought, that since this is actually standard content you or The Krit will write an article about it. But I guess you are ignoring that on purpose since it was me who brought that info.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_WhiZard on February 16, 2015, 02:27:31 am

Of course you and your buddy The Krit knew that even before NWN was released. Yet you kept that for yourselves.

I don't see how discussing this on the old old forums was "keeping this to ourselves." BioWare never gave an official response as to their release, and since the patches were still coming, these classes did seem on the horizon.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_WhiZard on February 16, 2015, 02:54:32 am

I thought, that since this is actually standard content you or The Krit will write an article about it. But I guess you are ignoring that on purpose since it was me who brought that info.

If the content requires 2da editing, or anything else that would be present in a hak, then it is not "standard content," as one must customize the game to implement it. But, I am not sure why you are constantly focusing on the Krit and I as being your two main obstacles and when questioned about it you give these answers:

Actually, it seems to me from your responds that you fixed all issues I am working on already yourself long time before I even thought of them (never used horses, learned these issues from Proleric's guide). Same with any knowhow I happen to share on these forums. Which is not just you, seems you all knew/fixed that already lol.

I understand sarcasm and hyperboles, but what I do not understand is the way you go from specifically targeting me in some places, and then saying I am just a member of a huge crowd in others. Is there a specific argument you have against me? Or do you need an adversary just to say that you have made it through significant opposition?

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Jfoxtail on February 16, 2015, 06:01:40 pm

Back to the main point ~ gentlemen please kindly retire to your corners. <cheers>

----

Quote" What do you mean by "need an arcane henchmen" in this case, though? I mean, you could easily solo HotU with a pure fighter or pure rogue if you wanted. Which sort of becomes a general question: what "should" an arcane companion provide? Summons? Buffs? AoE? Single target nukes? A bit of everything?"

---

Truly its not that you actually need any henchmen in any OCs. Within 5 minutes of any OC game launch I see the inevitable "how to solo" thread in a forum ~ LOL. It was true of NWN (1 and 2) BG (1 -3) KOTOR and Dragon Age... and many others..

But I think that is the point. "Tactics mods" and game challenge enhancements appeal to a certain type of player. Especially those that seem to be driven by the need to solo on "insane level".

I would not play a tactics mod HoTU solo just because I could. I am not one of those type players. I suspect there are more of "my type" but I have no proof just because I say so...

I would play a tactics mod HoTU game if my "classic D&D party was robust" and contained some banter / interaction that was mature, witty, potentially even "adult" with the proper disclosures.

The fun of community mods and OCs in my opinion lies in the quality of the "immersion as a function of logic of the situation" and the "henchmen/companions either contributing to that immersion or being at paradox to it".... the paradox henchman can be very very interesting if handled correctly.

I refer you to your other project... Aielund. Aielund is so great not "just" because of its level span 1 - 36 ; but because Robert Black, Criosa, The Dragon, The Barbarian shield maiden, the Druidess, the Ranger, the Cleric were so well written and provided any character build the potential "classic party" of the D&D genre...Fighter - Mage - Cleric - Thief.

Complimentary balance and dialogue... NPCs having their own motivations make a great game.

So in HoTU we had a Bard/RDD that "could fill in for mage". Nathy who ineffectively could fill in for "mage or thief". Valen who could fill in for Fighter effectively.

No pure divine caster/ cleric - no pure mage unless the PC antagonist was one.

My suggestion is merely that if re-tooling consider the above.

This was in fact one of the single criticisms of HoTU and frankly the loudest criticisms of SoU.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Jfoxtail on February 16, 2015, 06:13:29 pm

As I suggested (though other may have many better ideas)...

A Cleric of Waukeen the merchant god trapped in the Underdark by events ; commanding by divine mission to open new epic markets he or she is suddenly involved in the antagonists plight if only to profit from events...

A Mage seeking a drow gem as his/her final magical "ingredient" to complete their research into casting Melf's Acid Rainstorm ~ trapped by events... reluctant to join...

etc

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_WhiZard on February 17, 2015, 01:08:31 am

HotU is where the basic crafting was added (weapons, armor), and that might need a bit of focus in order to make sense in the module. For example, if PC crafted weapons were created with an item property (such as an on-hit) - one that would not be part of the forge upgrades - then PCs in chapter 2 and 3 can upgrade the weapons they crafted to add more variety.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 20, 2015, 08:12:51 am

Could I ask you to introduce new classes/races/subraces/domains as well?

You could use Eye of Gruumsh and the other class(disciple/monk of sth) that was partially developed by Bioware (which shadooow discovered and included in his patch) or even include some classes from PRC (those would need to be balanced though).

I'd have to look at Eye of Gruumsh and anything else potentially being added, class-wise. It would definitely be a lower priority.

What new races/subraces would even be added? The main problem I have with those is that they're usually code for "I want more power! Er, I mean I think we need a Half-Orc subrace that gains 4 str at the cost of 2 wis/2 cha. Balanced."

By domains you mean cleric domains? What would even be added?

Truly its not that you actually need any henchmen in any OCs. Within 5 minutes of any OC game launch I see the inevitable "how to solo" thread in a forum ~ LOL. It was true of NWN (1 and 2) BG (1 -3) KOTOR and Dragon Age... and many others..

I wasn't even trying to spark a discussion about soloing, I was more wondering what particular benefit an arcane caster would be considered "essential" for compared to a fighter, rogue, or cleric (or whatever). I mean, if the arcane caster does nothing but summon (more powerful) creatures and snipe with a crossbow, I'm guessing people wouldn't be thrilled (even if the mage's summons were so powerful they were better than a fighter). They probably expect AoE spells and/or IGMS and/or things like dispels/spell breaches. But what ratio?

This was in fact one of the single criticisms of HoTU and frankly the loudest criticisms of SoU.

Lack of a pure cleric/mage specifically or lack of companions overall?

As I suggested (though other may have many better ideas)...

If anything I'd be more concerned about writing/integrating them well enough than the idea itself. Like rogueknight said, I wouldn't want a situation where a default companion is better lore/story/dialogue wise but people feel compelled to bring a more powerful "added" companion.

HotU is where the basic crafting was added (weapons, armor), and that might need a bit of focus in order to make sense in the module. For example, if PC crafted weapons were created with an item property (such as an on-hit) - one that would not be part of the forge upgrades - then PCs in chapter 2 and 3 can upgrade the weapons they crafted to add more variety.

I'm not sure if it's even worth trying to make crafting good/useful, frankly.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Lilura on February 21, 2015, 01:53:59 am

Nathyrra could be tweaked to level properly as wizard, I'm sure. And Linu is already a pure Cleric. Another idea would be to introduce hireable mercs in Lith My'athar, who wouldn't need wordy dialogue and personalities; just heavy payment.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on February 21, 2015, 02:29:24 am

I'd have to look at Eye of Gruumsh and anything else potentially being added, class-wise. It would definitely be a lower priority.

What new races/subraces would even be added? The main problem I have with those is that they're usually code for "I want more power! Er, I mean I think we need a Half-Orc subrace that gains 4 str at the cost of 2 wis/2 cha. Balanced."

By domains you mean cleric domains? What would even be added?

I dont think this is good idea. Player can always install my patch which give him access to the Eye of Gruumsh and Shou Disciple. Or he can instal PRC which give him access to biggest custom character building selection ever. No need to add it into campaign, unless it would be needed for a plot like Purple Dragon Knight was.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_henesua on February 21, 2015, 05:19:03 pm

               I think this is a great idea, but not sold on requiring HAKs for it.

If you want a graphical overhaul, that could be handled with a Patch HAK side project. Basically you'd be using standard assets, and tell your players that if they want the HD version, all they need do is install the optional Patch HAK to facelift the whole thing.

One word on making the game harder: I think that will only appeal to a certain type of gamer. Most RPGs are easy because most players have more fun when they feel successful. If this overhaul is to have a wide appeal, I think you'll want to be careful about making it too hard.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_rjshae on February 26, 2015, 09:14:09 pm

*spoiler*

I have a little oddball suggestion:

Once the PC reaches Lith My'athar, I don't believe there's a cleric/druid henchman available. Hence:

In the Ale Gardens is a svirfneblin being forced to participate in a drinking game. What if the gnome is actually a defrocked cleric (or druid) of Segojan Earthcaller who came from fallen Blingdenstone? He was on a pilgrimage seeking penance to regain favor with his deity, when he was captured and enslaved. (He has lost his priestly spells and is psychologically shattered by being outcast.) If the PC is able to gain his freedom and aid him in his quest for penance, then the svirfneblin could join as an angst ridden henchman cleric who abhors alcohol.

*shrug*

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on February 26, 2015, 09:40:09 pm

I dont think this is good idea.

Interesting points, something to consider.

I think this is a great idea, but not sold on requiring HAKs for it.

If you want a graphical overhaul, that could be handled with a Patch HAK side project. Basically you'd be using standard assets, and tell your players that if they want the HD version, all they need do is install the optional Patch HAK to facelift the whole thing.

How would that work with something like, say, Project Q?

One word on making the game harder: I think that will only appeal to a certain type of gamer. Most RPGs are easy because most players have more fun when they feel successful. If this overhaul is to have a wide appeal, I think you'll want to be careful about making it too hard.

The goal isn't to make it nightmarishly hard or anything...the default game is simply a snoozefest 98% of the time. Trying to not make things too hard was a huge part of the design for Siege of the Heavens, for example -- nerfed a lot of stuff because while I could beat it easily, I didn't think most people could.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Jfoxtail on February 27, 2015, 06:21:40 pm

Companions overall were the complaint...

SOU : Barbarian Sorcerer/Fighter and the Dwarven Cleric/Thief... ineffective and unloved.

HOTU : Drow (female romantic interest) Thief / Assassin / Mage ... ineffective and illegal character build as I recall... but loved.

HOTU : Fighter Weaponmaster. Legit build ... effective.

If ~ as you say you enhance the A and increase a henchmen slot ~ I a pure caster Mage and pure caster Cleric would in fact be "effective within the context of the game". Even with Tony K AI henchmen are legitimately better.

More to the point roleplay wise (not just combat) party choices of :

Thiefling Fighter weaponmaster.

Drow Rogue Assassin (ignore the mage part)

Kobald Bard / RDD

additionally

Pure Cleric

Pure Mage

...Would give the protagonist the ability to create the archtype party of 4 (Fighter type, Mage Type, Rogue Type, Cleric Type) regardless of what class they optioned for.

Simply pick and choose 3 of the above.

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_Lilura on February 28, 2015, 01:23:00 am

Hah! I love Xanos. Normally I tell him to level as Barb, though (he takes Cleave at ninth level).

Title: Considering Doing a Revamp of HotU -- Thoughts?
Post by: Legacy_henesua on February 28, 2015, 11:09:39 pm

How would that work with something like, say, Project Q?

It wouldn't. Project Q isn't setup as a Patch HAK.

While you can extend the game with a Patch HAK, this method is better applied to overriding content like Zwerkules did with his Facelift. I also did this by making use of Zwerkules' stuff and adding much more stuff.