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Bioware Archive V2 => Official Campaign => Topic started by: Legacy_C Writer on August 27, 2010, 09:37:54 am

Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_C Writer on August 27, 2010, 09:37:54 am


               I've just completed the OC for the second time and have persuaded Aribeth into surrendering herself to Lord Nasher (as opposed to killing her which I did last time), but I don't remember finding out what happened to her in the end. Although I do know that...


**HotU Spoilers**

Aribeth is found in the cave in Carnia (if that's the name) and therefore must have died, but that didn't have to be from the PC, or even execution.

**/HotU Spoilers**


Not that I didn't like the OC (it was in fact my favourite), I thought that it could have just had a little but more closure. So, has this bugged anyone else? Or have I just missed something here?
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on August 27, 2010, 02:57:14 pm


               Actually, I have usually produced my own finality when it comes to Aribeth's OC fate. :devil:  

I've always felt that rather than suffer the humiliation and possible torture at the hands of Neverwinter's corrupt judicial power, she should be afforded the honor of a warrior's death, a mercy killing if you like. Further, I always battle her mano en mano so as not to burden any other character with the burden of my PC's actions.  HotU pretty much confirmed my suspicions as to what her ultimate fate would be at the hands of the mob so the "final battle" scenario seemed plausible.  It was the revelation of her TRUE feelings towards Fenthick that caught me by surprise.

Seriously though, it has bugged so many, in fact, that it has spawned community modules which link the OC with HotU, furnishing all the closure one needs for the imprisoned Aribeth scenario.

I suspect it was an intentional nuance provided by the designers to wet our appetite for the sequel., but that is just one fan's opinion, of course, C Writer. ;)
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 27 août 2010 - 02:07 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Westan Willows on August 28, 2010, 04:03:55 am


               I am not happy with the ending eather. They left it sooo open.
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_C Writer on August 28, 2010, 05:29:53 pm


               I can understand why some people leave it open, but personally, I feel that not knowing exactly what happens in the end isn't very satisfying given that in the case of NWN, a number of things could have happened to Aribeth. It wasn't just that though, I was hoping to speak with Nasher and maybe Gend about what was to be done (since I didn't want to think that they were going to kill Aribeth - not sure why though, since she did try to kill me, although not very well ;)), but maybe I'm just being picky.
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Vipre on August 30, 2010, 12:56:03 am


               You didn't miss anything, it was just left hanging.  Presumed executed it seems but I personally have a hard time buying that after "saving the world" nearly single handedly the PC could be stopped from doing anything by the Militia of Neverwinter including killing the lot of them if they attempted to execute her.


Ever heard of these two module sets...
Aribeth's Revival
Aribeth's Redemption
They were made to "tie up", after a fashion, the story of the OC.

I plan to play one or the other...if I ever manage to get around to finishing the OC that is.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Vipre, 30 août 2010 - 12:19 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_C Writer on August 30, 2010, 01:31:53 pm


               I also thought that I should have been able to stop them. Because when Neverwinter came under attack, I was surprised at how weak the enemies I was fighting actually were; I would have thought that the guards should have been able to do a better job of defending the city. If they couldn't even handle the small invasion force and I could, then I hardly think that I would be incapable of preventing the militia from killing Aribeth. Or at least that's how easy it became for a level 19 sorcerer with seemingly overpowered spells like Mestil's Acid Sheath, Flame Weapon and Premonition (plus offensive ones).
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_electricfish on September 07, 2010, 07:00:11 pm


               Why would Aribeth even have the chance to be saved from execution? Her crimes against her city, the people, and her god is justifiable reason to have her executed after the war is over. Aribeth did commit treason by exposing Neverwinter's secrets to the enemy, not to mention defaulted to an evil race of lizard people.

If your pc is good aligned, why would they commit a mostly evil action and try and prevent her execution? Evil aligned pcs are a little more likely to save her, but neither does the action have any identifiable benefit to the pc. You'll have a king who wants your head and a fallen paladin who seems to be pretty flaky by "unshakable faith in the gods" standards.

Lawful neutral pcs would probably be dutybound to follow through the excecution. Perhaps chaotic and true neutral would try and save her, but there's really no good reason for it given the scope of her crimes in the game world.
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Redunct on September 07, 2010, 07:09:10 pm


               

Zorr Crew wrote...

Why would Aribeth even have the chance to be saved from execution? Her crimes against her city, the people, and her god is justifiable reason to have her executed after the war is over. Aribeth did commit treason by exposing Neverwinter's secrets to the enemy, not to mention defaulted to an evil race of lizard people.
If your pc is good aligned, why would they commit a mostly evil action and try and prevent her execution? Evil aligned pcs are a little more likely to save her, but neither does the action have any identifiable benefit to the pc. You'll have a king who wants your head and a fallen paladin who seems to be pretty flaky by "unshakable faith in the gods" standards.
Lawful neutral pcs would probably be dutybound to follow through the excecution. Perhaps chaotic and true neutral would try and save her, but there's really no good reason for it given the scope of her crimes in the game world.


Chaotic Good characters would probably try to save her, depending on if the character thought it was justified to punish her for being mind controlled or not.

You're describing a chaotic action, not nessicarrily an evil action.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Redunct, 07 septembre 2010 - 06:09 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on September 07, 2010, 10:01:43 pm


               I must be old-fashioned, literally.

Why not just let the "sword" decide the verdict and bypass the question of justification entirely.  In that case any alignment will have the same chance to live or die according to the influence of a higher power.  I've yet to meet any character in any of the campaigns in whom I would place my confidence in an unbiased decision.  Well, maybe Deekin  *j/k*

I mean... jousting worked pretty well in its time.  Let divinity bless the righteous and doom the unrighteous and accept the outcome based on that. 

If Aribeth's "rights" are justified, divine intervention will surely tilt the scales in her favor and will be protected from harm under the cloak of holy power.   Then again, if it's Aribeth's God vs. my PC's God, that is a whole other situation and discussion, isn't it?
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:03 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Bard Simpson on September 08, 2010, 12:22:03 am


               I agree with Redunct on the chaotic vs. evil nature of saving Aribeth; indeed, I can see it being a good act. Love and mercy both come to mind as motivations. A character who has fallen in love with her should want to see her spared, but a truly good and merciful one could wish her life be spared. To quote the real bard:

The quality of mercy is not strain'd,

It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven

Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:

It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

Why couldn't a kind and benevolent soul wish to see Aribeth receive another chance and, perhaps, redeem herself. Is it truly more good to support the government that executed her lover merely to satisfy the mob?

Meh, even in fantasy, not everything turns out as we wish. I didn't write the story, I just played one part in it's unfolding. I'm just glad to have had the chance to do that. ;)
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on September 08, 2010, 03:11:52 am


               Ahhh... but therein lies the dilemma, Bard.

What is truly the merciful act?

To allow her the honor of a warrior's death or to submit her to the vengeful masses who have already proven their own version of mercy by putting Fenthick to death. Think about it.  Fenthick was no more than Desther's fall guy.  The mob deemed his irresponsibility as reason enough to order his death.  You really think the same hoard of crazies would provide a less painful execution for Aribeth?  Neverwinter's justice has been shown for what it is... an body that acts by emotion rather than with jurisprudence.  

You really have confidence that your PC's so-called act of mercy will be reciprocated by the masses?  I think not.  All the "mercy" will provide for her is a fate of rotting to death in prison or worse, to atone for the murders she herself was a party to.  The "The devil made me do it." defense will never hold up in any court of law, least of all in Neverwinter.

So it still comes down to recognizing what mercy really is in this case and how it is interpreted by lawful, chaotic, good or evil and all in between.  Any alignment can misconstrue what the merciful act is or guess right.

I still insist that the true mercy in this scenario is a warrior's death rather than the illusion of redemption followed by torture.  I don't think the alignment affects a PC's ability to discern the merit of either alternative.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 08 septembre 2010 - 02:28 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Bard Simpson on September 08, 2010, 05:19:50 pm


               True, Hip, I wouldn't expect any mercy in Neverwinter. I was actually thinking of my character sparing her life and taking Aribeth away from that city of bloodthirsty people. As Vipre and C Writer said, my character seemed powerful enough to pretty much do as he pleased (especially since I felt Daelan might well still back him up on even this issue); if given the option, I would have told Nasher to be content that I'd saved the city and then left with Aribeth. Since that wasn't a possibility, your choice may well be the best. :blush:
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on September 08, 2010, 06:04:13 pm


               It's too bad the designer's didn't give us lowly players some indication as to the actual consequences of our respective actions in that interaction... like some sort of alignment shift according to the chosen action. It really wouldn't have been that hard to do either.

I find myself in an ambiguous position with a comment like that since I feel the current alignment pigeon-holing system is pretty lame. But the adage "You dance with the one that brought you." I think applies to players trying to manage playing within the bounds of the designed dynamic.

My RP typically will afford my PC no more control than a hero contracted to perform a service, never with illusions of godhood.  Even with overwhelming combat capabilities, I never feel as though my character has the power to control the impetus and attitudes of an entire municipality.  As independent as a PC is designed to be, in the overall environment a PC is still only a spoke on a wheel.  I'm speaking RP-wise in this respect, of course.

I find it pretty ironic that in HotU, Aribeth remembered everything that happened in Neverwinter OTHER than our memorable battle-to-the-death tête-a-tête.  Whatever her fate was, partial amnesia must have been one of the effects.  Love knows no bounds! :D
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 08 septembre 2010 - 05:20 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Poecile on September 08, 2010, 09:08:20 pm


               

Zorr Crew wrote...

Why would Aribeth even have the chance to be saved from execution? Her crimes against her city, the people, and her god is justifiable reason to have her executed after the war is over. Aribeth did commit treason by exposing Neverwinter's secrets to the enemy, not to mention defaulted to an evil race of lizard people.
If your pc is good aligned, why would they commit a mostly evil action and try and prevent her execution? Evil aligned pcs are a little more likely to save her, but neither does the action have any identifiable benefit to the pc. You'll have a king who wants your head and a fallen paladin who seems to be pretty flaky by "unshakable faith in the gods" standards.
Lawful neutral pcs would probably be dutybound to follow through the excecution. Perhaps chaotic and true neutral would try and save her, but there's really no good reason for it given the scope of her crimes in the game world.


There are ample reasons given in game as to why Aribeth's life should be spared and that she should be offered a chance at redemption, copy and pasted from my posts on the old forum:

Morag waited till Aribeth was alone and sleeping in Port Llast where she was, basically, defenseless to withstand Morag's 'forced entry' (into her mind and dreams) magical tamperings.

As Haedraline revealed-

"The one you call Aribeth has fallen under Morag's spell. Some terrible fate left her vulnerable to Morag's corrupting evil. My Queen touched her mind through her dreams, feeding a dark and festering hatred until it consumed all else. Aribeth is a slave to Morag's evil now."

 If Aribeth was so eager to join up with the Host Tower, why did it take several nights of these clandestine and nefarious encounters to finally push Aribeth over the edge?


Aarin-- "The noble paladin earns my pity, friend. Her heart has been broken and her faith shaken... I do not think 'well' is a word that will describe her
ever again. I am informed that she has been plagued by terrible nightmares that keep her from rest. She speaks horrid things in her sleep, frightening the servants. I
can only imagine what the elf sees when she closes her eyes. She will not confide in me, nor will she agree to return to Neverwinter. I worry for her, truly."


Hmm, even Aarin concurs that something terrible is happening to Aribeth during the night, as did Aribeth herself.

And after Morag had reached her goal, Aarin had this to say...

Aarin-- "Aribeth has stirred from her grief, but not as I'd hoped. She has replaced it with a frightening rage that she almost cannot contain."

Aribeth was in Port Llast looking for answers to her doubts and questions about Fenthick's execution, about failed justice, about her own crisis of faith.

And you know, yes, she was angered by the reaction of the citizenry to Fenthick's execution, as would any sane individual who happens to watch their betrothed hanging from a noose before a cheering mob.

So this anger that she had, you would think it would have boiled over on its own, but instead of storming off to Luskan right then and there, she went to Port Llast and she sought answers and she prayed and she meditated.

Then who shows up, none other than MORAG, guised as Tyr to spurn Aribeth's soul searching. Then night after night, Morag returned to mess with her head, Aribeth frightened the servants with her nightly torment.

"My Queen touched her mind through her dreams, feeding a dark and festering hatred until it consumed all else. Aribeth is a slave to Morag's evil now."

Aribeth did not run off to Luskan until Morag messed with her head, PERIOD, end of discussion.

If Morag was so convinced that Aribeth would join up with the enemy, then why would she resort to using her magics to increase the odds?

She could have relied on conversational persuasion rather than administering a dose of potent magics into Aribeth's mind. Same reason people use alcohol or spiked drinks to make others more pliable.

Really, someone should have stepped in and taken control of Aribeth's well-being. Everyone knew that she was experiencing some very traumatic incidents while she slept, someone should have had her placed under the care of watchful and trained caregivers.

But this all happened at the end of a devastating plague and many people were still dealing with the aftermath of the Wailing Death. The concern for Aribeth's condition fell between the cracks.

The PC faces off against Aribeth in Maugrim's estate, he/she can break through and reach Aribeth's better senses without having to kill her in the end.

She tells the PC after the PC says-

"It is not too late, Aribeth. There is still a chance to make things right."

Aribeth- "...And I have been too long under Morag's power. The Queen has a... a hold on me. I could not stand with you against her, even if... even if I wanted to. I cannot help the city."

and the PC can say during the same conversation-

PC- "Join with me, Aribeth - together we can defeat Maugrim and Morag!"

Aribeth- "No! I... I dare not. I have served Morag for too long. She had a... a hold over me. I am afraid if I must face her or Maugrim I might once again fall under her sway."

and, meeting with Aribeth back in Castle Never's prison-

"Join with me to fight Morag" (into the Source Stone)


Aribeth - "I served too long under the Queen of the Old Ones. She has a... a hold over me. A power I fear I might not be able to resist."


If you are Morag, do you give the keys to your army to someone who has the freedom to do as they please, especially since Aribeth was with her rivals? Aribeth corroborates what Haedraline revealed.

Everything reveals the same thing. From Maugrim to Aribeth to Aarin to Haedraline to Aribeth again to Asheera. People who support Aribeth are not basing their stance on whimsical fluff.

Here are even more revealing lines...
Host Tower conversations regarding Aribeth's condition


PC- "You trust a traitor to lead an army?"

Gurak Entraispiller (Orc Ambassador)-
"Traitor, elf, whatever. Maugrim say he has her under control real good, so me not have much worry. If it go bad, orcs kill wizards and go home."

PC- "You trust a traitor to lead an army?"

Yeanasha (Elk Tribe Barbarian Ambassador)-
"If the elven wench steps out of line, she'll not get far. I am assured by Maugrim, however, that this Aribeth is quite firmly under his control."

PC- Who are his (Maugrim's) supporters... Aribeth?

Rimardo (Overwizard of the East Tower)-
"Yes, he... he has seduced her soul, just like all of his other followers. I do not know how, but he has pushed her to betray her own people."

and, meeting with Aribeth back in Castle Never's prison-

"Join with me to fight Morag" (into the Source Stone)


Aribeth - "I served too long under the Queen of the Old Ones. She has a... a hold over me. A power I fear I might not be able to resist."

the fall of Helm's Hold and the ruin of Neverwinter imply that Morag had an abundance of power to contend with the deities of Faerun.

Aribeth had ample opportunity to flee to the Host Tower of her own volition, yet she was content to pack up her bags to head out to Port Llast. She sought counsel, she prayed, she meditated, she questioned the PC...

The answer to her prayers was Morag in the guise of Tyr and Morag made it seem that Tyr turned her back on Aribeth, leaving her alone to suffer the nightly torment. Aribeth felt she was being punished for having doubts about justice and asking questions.

This was doubly impactful, as Tyr did have legitimate interaction with Aribeth during her dreams while she rehabilitated in the Ilmateri Monastery.

She was crushed, heart-broken, faith-shattered... she was easy prey for Morag, all things considered and Tyr would consider all things.

"The pain of knowing that his mortal charges cannot hope to initiate and protect a flawless, completely just orderly existence tinges Tyr's philosophy with an undercurrent of resigned sadness."- Faiths & Pantheons pg.79

There is a "paternal leniency and understanding" there, a quality of goodness.


From BearThing on the old forums:

To my thinking, this raises questions as to the degree that someone whose mind is being tampered with is able to gauge their own motivations and behavior. But, since we don't have a full explanation of how Old One magic might have worked (and since the prosecution claims there wasn't any magic involved, just persuasion) let's try to find another example of someone who is "under the influence."

Defense calls Esmerelda to the stand.


Quote: 
- Who are you?

I am Esmerelda, one of Master Ford's students. He has me concocting philters of crushed gems, as if he hopes that will give him some insight into the Source Stone.

- Who is Master Ford and where can I find him?

He's a well-known archeologist. Well-known in his field, anyway. It's a rather small, tight-knit group. Most of them have died off, tampering with arcane treasures they've unearthed.

Normally Master Ford has the sense not to mess with magic, but he's fascinated by the Source Stone. That's him over there by the door.

- What do you know about the Source Stone?

I know it's a thing of great power - and great evil! I wish we had never found it. There's something alive inside - that's what Master Ford says.

You'd think that would make him more cautious, but he's behaving very strangely. It's like the stone has some strange hold over him.

Hmmm... the archeologist's assistant seems to think he is behaving abnormally. Let's see what the man himself has to say. Defense calls Master Ford.


Quote: 
- Who are you again?

I am Master Ford, Neverwinter's foremost expert in ancient artifacts and historical treasures. In short, an archeologist.

When the Source Stone was discovered here beneath Castle Never, Lord Nasher wisely appointed me to investigate its secrets. What I have uncovered so far has been fascinating!

- What do you know about the Source Stone?

The stone radiates a magical heat strong enough to keep the entire city warm even in this chill climate, yet gentle enough that you can actually go right up and touch the stone itself.

That is all we really know for certain. However, I have several theories based on my own examinations and extensive research into ancient manuscripts.

My research indicates that there is an entire extra-planar realm within its gleaming crystalline surface; a nexus of many parallel worlds, a conduit linking alternate planes and universes with each other.

And something lives within the Source Stone as well. Of that I'm certain. A powerful life force emanates from the stone - probably from the inhabitants of the extra-planar realm.

- Don't you think it might be dangerous to unlock the secrets of the Source Stone?

You sound like my assistant Esmerelda. She wants nothing to do with the stone. But I am well aware of the risks involved.

And yet... I cannot leave the stone alone. When awake it consumes my thoughts and at night it haunts my dreams. It calls to me... it *wants* me to unravel the mysteries contained within!

- You feel the call of the ancient evil that dwells within the stone, Master Ford. Beware lest it consume you.

My assistant Esmerelda said the same thing. I'll tell you what I told her - I'm an experienced archeologist. I know what I'm doing. Don't worry about me.


'Aribeth's Revival' Module
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:18 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on September 09, 2010, 12:10:08 am


               OMG,! The community finally drew Poecile into an OC thread.  "Lovely, lovely Aribeth" has been resurrected!

It was the Aribeth's comment
"His (i.e. Fenthick's) blood is on their (i.e. the Neverwinter mob's) hands. We are all guilty here, and we are all deserving of death."
that seemed to indicate her resignation of a blood resolution to the situation.  At that point, she seems to have regained her morality enough to recognize her fate.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 08 septembre 2010 - 11:16 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Vipre on September 09, 2010, 08:58:48 pm


               Whether believed to be deserving of death or not death isn't always justice. Although as pointed out who could expect justice when the ruler bows to the whims of mobs, "The devil made me do it" is a valid defense when everyone in the court knows for fact the devil is real.



Had Head Gaoler Alaefin hypothetically survived his encounter with the the Intellect Devourer nothing he did before or during the prison break would be his responsibility. Aribeth was no different except that the creature wasn't physically in her head.
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Poecile on September 10, 2010, 05:18:21 pm


               

HipMaestro wrote...

OMG,! The community finally drew Poecile into an OC thread.  "Lovely, lovely Aribeth" has been resurrected!

It was the Aribeth's comment

"His (i.e. Fenthick's) blood is on their (i.e. the Neverwinter mob's) hands. We are all guilty here, and we are all deserving of death."
that seemed to indicate her resignation of a blood resolution to the situation.  At that point, she seems to have regained her morality enough to recognize her fate.



  HehPosted Image, it hasn't been resurrected just yet HipMaestro.

  I forgot to post another quote from Maugrim's Journal...

From Maugrim's Journal--
"Desther is dead, but Morag has promised me a far greater ally - the Lady Aribeth de Tylmarande herself! My Queen speaks to the young paladin through her dreams, feeding her hatred and bending her to our will! Soon she will be ours!"
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Bard Simpson on September 11, 2010, 01:07:02 am


               Maugrim and Morag, feh! My good, swashbuckling rogue showed them a thing or two. In the end, Aribeth turned her back on them; I only wish my character could have spirited her away from the Jewel of Reproach (oh, I meant Jewel of the North :D).
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_C Writer on September 11, 2010, 12:38:43 pm


               I did in fact feel like saving Aribeth the first time I played; I just hadn't invested in the persuade skill. Due to the conversation lines that Poecile has quoted, I viewed saving Aribeth as a good act (and would have viewed preventing an execution of also being good, if also chaotic) and I wanted to know what was going to happen to an important character. Besides, I've always hated Lord Nasher, especially since I've completed NWN2 where he makes an unfortunate return, which is why I would have liked to have been able to influence his decision instead of simply not knowing.



The way I see it, if you are playing on the harder mode and are dominated into attacking your followers, does that make you evil? No. And from what I've heard in both the game and this thread, Aribeth was under Morag's power.
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_the.gray.fox on September 11, 2010, 03:49:00 pm


               Hello.
Can I contribute with my thoughts on Aribeth?

Aribeth had a weak will.

Morag began "working" on her with dreams.
Aribeth could still think and act on her own at the time.
The loss of Fenthick was crippling to her, but still Aribeth could make her own decisions.

She somehow felt something was wrong with her.
But she did not seek help.
And she did not try to resist the "urge" to exact vengeance.

She sealed her own destiny with her own hands.
She was "dead" the moment she gave up her paladinhood to ally with the lizards.

That act led to the invasion of Neverwinter, the city she swore to protect with her life, and to the loss of many innocents.
There could be no way to avert her fate. A whole city wanted her dead.
Even Lord Nasher, wise and beloved ruler, could not oppose the will of the masses.
How could the lone hero (you) have any right to do it?
Do not forget that Lord Nasher himself was a hero to the city.
Aribeth too was a heroine to the city. But none of this had a weight in the matter.


I think Aribeth was the best character in all NWN campaigns.
She had personality, charisma, a past, and troubles to deal with.

She was the shining example of what a Paladin is.
But she demonstrated she could not handle the pressure.

She was idolized by many, yet intimately she was frail and weak.
Granted, the death of Fenthick was plain unjust. Aribeth was _right_ to feel anger.
Still, she acted in the wrong way. Her anger destabilized her.
And prisoner of her own fame, she could not expose the truth by asking for help.
(these bits of her personality are easier to understand in HOTU)

Victim of *her own* weakness.
That same weakness who then led her to the willful assault of Neverwinter.

She could not be saved. She did too much Wrong, beyond any chance of salvation.

I believe the scripters made an excellent job in shaping her tragedy.
My only complain is that her fate (after Morag death) was not recount with sufficient depth.
Felt almost like a rushed ending of the campaign.


-fox
               
               

               


                     Modifié par the.gray.fox, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:53 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Poecile on September 11, 2010, 04:46:13 pm


               

the.gray.fox wrote...

Hello.
Can I contribute with my thoughts on Aribeth?

Aribeth had a weak will.

Morag began "working" on her with dreams.
Aribeth could still think and act on her own at the time.
The loss of Fenthick was crippling to her, but still Aribeth could make her own decisions.

She somehow felt something was wrong with her.
But she did not seek help.
And she did not try to resist the "urge" to exact vengeance.
-fox


  Well, you are wrong gray.fox.  Aribeth DID seek help.  She went to Port Llast and she sought answers from Tyr himself, as Tyr had previously interacted with Aribeth during her dreams while she rehabilitated in the Ilmateri monastery.  That interaction led her to become a Paladin in Neverwinter, in the Hall of Justice.

  And she thought she had received the answer from Tyr, he turned his back on her, made her feel guilty for questioning justice and questioning Fenthick's execution, but it was MORAG in the guise of Tyr.  Morag, you know, the one who had the power to overrun Helm's Hold, and to snatch a temple to Cyric from his priest through Gulnan the Yuan-Ti, a refresher:

  Crumpled Note in Gulnan, the Yuan-Ti's, quarters-

"This note is disjointed and sloppy, as though the author wrote it after suddenly waking from a deep sleep.

Excerpt:
"I have gained much since the Academy was attacked. I did not see who freed me, and I don't care. Strength has come to me strangely... quickly. There is definitely some greater power at work in Neverwinter, and it favors me this day. I have seen it in the dreams... I see the eye... I don't know what it means, but I know this: if the Neverwintans want me for their cure they can carve the contribution from my corpse! So sayeth Gulnan!"

When asked 'what god Gulnan makes sacrifices to', Jared the servant of Cyric-

"What indeed! Not the god of her pathetic people, whatever name such a whelp goes by. Cyric would not have allowed that defeat! She cheats! She's got some power on her side! One that dares ignore my true calling! One that abuses the focus I created!"

Morag's power, derived from the thousands of dead plague victims, was trickled to Gulnan where the lone Yuan-Ti was able to usurp the cult of Cyric in the Beggar's Nest. Yet another example of Morag's capability.

Gulnan's quote-
"You cannot deny that the scales will rule! See the power I am granted?! It is incredible, and beyond even Merrshaulk!" (The Yuan-Ti deity).

Here's another copy&paste post I wrote, but it fits here:

I think the story works the angle where a Paladin just might not be able to 'stay afloat'. That is one reason why I think highly of the character and story. It is a perfect storm where everything 'conspires' to facilitate Aribeth's eventual predicament.

She was left for dead in a snow storm, while hunting and tracking orcs. Someone, presumably Tyr per Aribeth's description, rescued Aribeth from certain death and brought her to the Ilmateri Monastery just outside Silverymoon.

While she had been rehabilitating, Tyr would 'counsel' Aribeth on the ways of Justice, through or in her dreams. This led her on to Neverwinter.

Morag had ample power to contend with various deities in Neverwinter; e.g. Helm, Cyric, Tyr.

Aribeth was grief stricken and she sought answers from Tyr and little did she know, Morag delivered them to her via her nightly torments. She felt like she was being punished by Tyr because of her feelings of grief and doubt.

It wasn't that she didn't beseech or call on Tyr for support, as some people have asserted, she did call on Tyr.

Everything and everyone she believed in, e.g. Nasher, Fenthick, the citizens of Neverwinter, Justice and even Tyr (though it was Morag) all led her to being an extremely vulnerable victim for Morag to ply and manipulate.

Morag had Aribeth right where she wanted her, just as she had planned.

Maugrim's Diary-

"Desther is dead, but Morag has promised me a far greater ally - the Lady Aribeth de Tylmarande herself! My Queen speaks to the young paladin through her dreams, feeding her hatred and bending her to our will! Soon she will be ours!"

Haedraline-

"The one you call Aribeth has fallen under Morag's spell. Some terrible fate left her vulnerable to Morag's corrupting evil. My Queen touched her mind through her dreams, feeding a dark and festering hatred until it consumed all else. Aribeth is a slave to Morag's evil now."

 If Aribeth had a weak will, as you say, it was because Morag was lowering it with her magics.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:53 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_the.gray.fox on September 11, 2010, 05:46:15 pm


               Hello.
I disagree.


Why not choose Lord Nasher, then?
Nasher was infected by the plague.
Aribeth was not.
Nasher was not influenced by Morag.
Aribeth was.

How do you explain this?

Nasher would have been the preferred target, being the ruler.
Aribeth was just a servant. A symbol, a VIP, a strong warrior, but still a servant.
Moreover it was Aribeth who actively worked against the plague.
Was not for her trusting in you (the hero), the story would have steered in quite a different direction.
Maybe Neverwinter would have been wiped out by plague alone.

Morag *chose* Aribeth because she was the weakest target.
Dester (or his servants, no matter) was able to defy Nasher and plague him.
Why could not he do the same with Aribeth, who certainly was a more accessible target (aside from being a valuable asset in the defense of the city)?

You see, from a strategic point of view, Aribeth was among the targets to take out A.S.A.P.
It makes no sense that she was spared.

Unless... we consider that Morag _wanted_ her.
Aribeth weak will made her easy prey of Morag influence.
The execution of Fenthick made it all the more easier.

As for the vaunted superpowers of Morag, I think you interpreted them in the wrong way.
The Yuan-Ti mentioned some external aid. And she quite liked it.
She did not even care to know _who/what_ was behind this help.
Yuan-Tis are evil by nature. In this sense, Morag had the way paved.
Morag did not need to control the Yuan-Ti. All Morag wanted was for the Yuan-Ti to bring chaos and disarray from within the city.
And what else would you expect from an Evil being able to roam free, and boosted by some power?

Dester too was evil. And Maugrim as well.
They needed not to be controlled by some spell.
They were favored by an Evil greater power, and they _embraced_ it.

Aribeth was vulnerable. And she needed a push.
But eventually she embraced this Evil as well.
She was no puppet. She acted on her own volition, and she did it to exact her revenge.
She knew Morag was Evil. She did not care. Aribeth wanted vengeance. Morag promised vengeance.
Aribeth wanted it, Morag granted it.
Aribeth mind was driven by 1 single purpose: to see Neverwinter drowned in its blood.
She could accept any fate thereafter, so as long as her wish was satisfied.
Morag took advantage of it.

Thus, Morag acquired her new ally.
All Morag did was to subtly "push" Aribeth closer and closer to the abyss.
But ultimately it was Aribeths choice to throw herself in.


-fox


/edit

My claim is further supported by what Aribeth says in the HotU campaign.
Do you remember why Aribeth exiles herself in that frigid cave?
She does it after Mephistopheles reveals to everyone that, deep in her heart, Aribeth did NOT care about Fenthick.

Hell, this woman moved war to her own town, betrayed every single soul in it, caused a bloodbath of such a proportion... and she did it out of vengeance for the death of her beloved... which she did not love at all???
This is the major shame that leads Aribeth to self-confinement in HotU.
Her personality is shattered by the unbearable truth.

She has built most of her life on a pile of lies.
And when she realizes it...

As I said, Aribeth was victim of her own weakness.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par the.gray.fox, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Poecile on September 11, 2010, 09:47:54 pm


               

the.gray.fox wrote...

Hello.
I disagree.





   The power that the Yuan-Ti and Desther and Maugrim wielded came from the Source Stone and MORAG, the leader of the Old Ones who had been "hibernating" within its sanctuary waiting for the time someone would unleash its power through the reading of an ancient scroll that would enable it to strengthen its power through the death of thousands who had been afflicted with its "Wailing Death Spell/Curse/Whatever"

  Morag lent her power to Maugrim and Desther to begin her campaign against the Sword Coast.  Why Desther, then?  Why not Nasher?  I don't know.  

  Anyhow, the ENTIRE population of Helm's Hold was unable to detect the False Helmites who happened to infiltrate its very core.  Helm!

  The Hall of Justice and all of its workers were unable to detect or unmask the False Helmite intrusion...  Morag wielded great power, over this mass of people, to keep the False Helmites from being detected!

 She gave the Yuan-Ti support to overthrow the entire cult of Cyric!, read that again!,  to acquire the focus that would allow them to create an army of undead to help them in their efforts against Neverwinter.  The priest even reveals that the Yuan-Ti could not achieve such success without a power greater than her Yuan-Ti's deities, this power is from MORAG.

  Now, we get to Aribeth...  

  She went for help, she sought Tyr and she got Morag...  She felt she was being punished by Tyr for having her doubts about Justice and Fenthick's execution, she saw Tyr turn his back on her and she felt abandoned, where should she go now, to the Hall of Justice, the main center of Tyr's influence in Neverwinter??...  And, anyway, she does seek help, she tells the PC about her torment.   

  When the PC finds out about Fenthick giving the Ward Stones to Desther, we can forewarn Nasher and he blows us off saying it is of no concern.  But now, when we have concern about Aribeth, we don't have an option to tell Aarin to gather some clerics to help her through...  Game mechanics prevent us from aiding Aribeth at the time she sought help from us.

  And Aribeth alone against the mighty power of Morag when Aribeth doesn't even know or recognize her foe...  Do you really expect her to withstand that torment.  And yet, she does!  It takes several nights of this terror before she finally succumbs to Morag's power.   I can just hear Morag's whispers. 

  "You've seen how Justice failed, you've seen Tyr turn his back on you, now it is time for you to carry the mantle of Justice and dispense it upon the citizenry who deserve to feel its wrath. etc."  Combine that with the corrupting magics that we've seen work on Master Ford and the citizenry as well, then you can't possibly believe that Aribeth would be able to withstand the ordeal.

 Morag knew Aribeth would be in a weakened state and she knew they could ply her with the 'righteous cause' angle because of favorable circumstances for the Old Ones, and they knew she had great charisma as a leader, compared to Nasher and that she was in a better state of health.  Aribeth didn't have a chance against Morag, at that time.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:20 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on September 11, 2010, 11:22:23 pm


               Okay, Poecile... here is my question:

Is it mandatory for a paladin to align with a deity?

I mean, once you've lost your faith wouldn't it make the most sense to become a nomadic paladin of some sort?  Or is a paladin unable to discern right-from-wrong,  good-from-evil, truth-from-lies, etc... without the counsel of prayer?

It seems to me the main mistake Aribeth made was in choosing another power to pledge her allegiance.  She would have done better for all concerned had she retired into the wild until she came to grips with her station in life.  Somehow, I think Morag was able to take easy advantage of the situation due to this character trait.  Unless, of course, being a paladin mandates some sort of affiliation with some power/deity.  In that case only, she was trapped.
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Poecile on September 12, 2010, 02:56:37 am


               

HipMaestro wrote...

Okay, Poecile... here is my question:

Is it mandatory for a paladin to align with a deity?

I mean, once you've lost your faith wouldn't it make the most sense to become a nomadic paladin of some sort?  Or is a paladin unable to discern right-from-wrong,  good-from-evil, truth-from-lies, etc... without the counsel of prayer?

It seems to me the main mistake Aribeth made was in choosing another power to pledge her allegiance.  She would have done better for all concerned had she retired into the wild until she came to grips with her station in life.  Somehow, I think Morag was able to take easy advantage of the situation due to this character trait.  Unless, of course, being a paladin mandates some sort of affiliation with some power/deity.  In that case only, she was trapped.


  That's an interesting way to look at it, HipMaestro. 
From here - Deities of Faerun

"It is well known in Faerûn that those who die without a patron deity to send a servant to collect their souls from the Fugue Plane at their death will spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells and infernos of devils and demons."

 
  And, especially for Paladins, you'd need to have a patron deity, otherwise you'd no longer be a Paladin, as far as I know.  Aribeth's path was at a pivotal point when she was sent off to Port Llast.  In her mind, she probably thought it would be best to distance herself from the city and Lord Nasher to allow herself an opportunity to 'cool down' and meditate and seek counsel, which she did.

  It goes back to her childhood, her village was sacked by a band of orcs, during which, her family was slaughtered...  She resigned herself to death right then and there, and it was her life's devotion to bring vengeance upon orc-kind, until she take her last breath, which she almost did when she was caught in a blizzard up in the Spine of the North Mountain range.

  Tyr, or a representative of Tyr, rescued Aribeth from certain death and brought her to the monastery near Silverymoon.  She was rehabilitated and she was counseled in the ways of Justice over Vengeance, so her new life was profoundly shaped by Tyr himself, as she had direct interaction with the deity during her dream state, or so we're led to assume. 

  It is unusual for an elf to garner the attention of a human deity in this manner, so it is an intriguing relationship.  It shows the impact that Tyr had on Aribeth, that she would become his Paladin and head off to Neverwinter...

  Anyway, back to Aribeth in Port Llast, she sought counsel directly from Tyr himself, she wanted to know if her feelings about Fenthick's execution were justified, if her anger at the citizens was justified.  I think we all can agree that her feelings were justified.  

 So, now, Morag comes as Tyr and pretty much spits at her feet.  To me, that was the last straw.  This revered deity, the one who saved her from death is now abandoning her over something so sensible as her feelings of doubt, her feelings that Justice failed Fenthick and it might fail her and who knows who else.   And not just abandonment, she feels that he is the one responsible for the 'punishing' night terrors.

  Now, if we remove Morag's corrupting magics, Aribeth just might have done as you said.  She might have gone back to her elven life and ways in the woods, a lone ranger of sorts...  She might have felt that her whole life had been a sham, from the moment she'd been rescued back in the blizzard.

 But, we can't ignore Morag and her tamperings, and we know what Morag was capable of doing, just reread the Master Ford and Esmerelda lines for the subtle, seductive powers of the Source Stone. 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:01 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_C Writer on September 16, 2010, 08:06:02 am


               
Quote
the.gray.fox wrote...

Hello.
I disagree.


Why not choose Lord Nasher, then?
Nasher was infected by the plague.
Aribeth was not.
Nasher was not influenced by Morag.
Aribeth was.

How do you explain this?


It isn't about the plague though. Morag didn't choose Aribeth because she was genuinly weak, but because she had been traumitised by Fenthick's death (which was perfect for her as she would want help). Also, Nasher was probably too old to be of much use to Morag, since Aribeth would no doubt have been more capable in combat.[/QUOTE]

Quote
the.gray.fox wrote...Aribeth was vulnerable. And she needed a push.
But eventually she embraced this Evil as well.
She was no puppet. She acted on her own volition, and she did it to exact her revenge.
She knew Morag was Evil. She did not care. Aribeth wanted vengeance. Morag promised vengeance.
Aribeth wanted it, Morag granted it.
Aribeth mind was driven by 1 single purpose: to see Neverwinter drowned in its blood.
She could accept any fate thereafter, so as long as her wish was satisfied.
Morag took advantage of it.


If Aribeth embraced evil, then why did she want to stop the plague and find the cult? Why did she regret her reactions once you beat her down and successfully talked to her in order to look past Morag's spell?
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_The RealArchAngel on October 01, 2010, 12:58:59 am


               Never cared for Neverwinter as my PCs always seem to get in trouble there
Stumbling into Neverwinter  then getting trapped in it cause of a plague is just the latest example...lol

Aribeth was was executed if your PC  offered her a chance to surrender and she took it,plain and simple

It is what causes your PC to leave Neverwinter Disgusted with Nasher and the city (Linu? mentions this in HOTU) which is why you need to make a new character for SOU

As far as Aribeth's action her god was the god of Justice and there was no justice in tNeverwinter executing a innocent man for association...if anything she temporarily became a "Heritic Blackgaurd" in trying to punnish Neverwinter for their sin of Injustice under Morgue influsence
               
               

               


                     Modifié par The RealArchAngel, 01 octobre 2010 - 12:03 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Nerevar-as on October 01, 2010, 05:43:35 pm


               For me Aribeth´s fate was a WTF. Her fianceé is executed as a traitor for being too anive and trusting just so Nasher can save face, then she has a crysis of faith that allows Morag to brainwash/mindrape her, and after I managed to bring her back not only does Nasher execute her (something my OC would have killed him for), but her soul ends in hell? Tyr is a jerkass of a god indeed. Hope he got killed in one of those retcons the FR go every other year.



Or was it an homage to the Dark Phoenix saga? let´s kill a character because we can´t allow a mass murderer despite being (temporarily) corrupted by outside forces.



               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Poecile on October 02, 2010, 05:20:15 pm


               

Nerevar-as wrote...

For me Aribeth´s fate was a WTF. Her fianceé is executed as a traitor for being too anive and trusting just so Nasher can save face, then she has a crysis of faith that allows Morag to brainwash/mindrape her, and after I managed to bring her back not only does Nasher execute her (something my OC would have killed him for), but her soul ends in hell? Tyr is a jerkass of a god indeed. Hope he got killed in one of those retcons the FR go every other year.

Or was it an homage to the Dark Phoenix saga? let´s kill a character because we can´t allow a mass murderer despite being (temporarily) corrupted by outside forces.



  Yeah, that's pretty much how HotU ruined it. 

  In order for Bioware to continue with Aribeth's story, they had to cater to those characters who killed her in Maugrim's estate. 

 They couldn't continue the story from where I left off, with a hopeful Aribeth in Castle Never's dungeon and with a somewhat remorseful Lord Nasher.

  In HotU they had to follow the path where she died, for all characters, else they rewrite and ruin the story for many, e.g. 'whatta ya mean her life was spared?  I killed the *** in Maugrim's estate!" (Don't want to rile up that crowd now, do we?)

  They left the backstory vague, but let it be known that she died in some fashion.  But if you're going to be a stickler for story, she isn't the same character in HotU as she was in NWN.  Her history is different and he race is different.  I prefer to omit HotU from any discussion of Aribeth's fate, it isn't justified. :D 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:24 .
                     
                  


            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_Nerevar-as on October 02, 2010, 07:20:15 pm


               

Poecile wrote...

  They left the backstory vague, but let it be known that she died in some fashion.  But if you're going to be a stickler for story, she isn't the same character in HotU as she was in NWN.  Her history is different and he race is different.  I prefer to omit HotU from any discussion of Aribeth's fate, it isn't justified. :D 


I can see Nasher having her killed, but having her soul in hell has no excuse, they simply didn´t think it through when the game was written. Tyr was LG I think, and she was brainwashed.
We can always retcon it to the part of her soul that got corrupted under the spell, or something like that.

I think the PC in HotU should have been the OC one, it has the former companions after all. Back then there was no feeling of friendship between characters, but even then it felt disconnected.
               
               

               
            
Title: Aribeth's Fate?
Post by: Legacy_The RealArchAngel on October 12, 2010, 05:12:51 am


               

I can see Nasher having her killed, but having her soul in hell has no excuse, they simply didn´t think it through when the game was written. Tyr was LG I think, and she was brainwashed.
We can always retcon it to the part of her soul that got corrupted under the spell, or something like that.

Who said Tyr was the one that put her in hell?
Remember things are always kind of ify in the Fugue Plane and she might have chosen the offer to go to hell instead of face Tyr's  judement from one of the devils petitioning the souls waiting
And the reason she was in her perdicument was because she was standing up to Big M...but Big M just didn't just kill her and asorb her energy like any true "dammed"...why(hint,she was a potential "Devil" recruit)

In the ending of HOTU  (with my PC encouraging her to be good) she first became a "gaurdian spirit" of  Neverwinter comforting the sick and dying until one day Tyr Himself came to take here with future sightings of Tyr in Neverwinter always having Aribeth on his right side(rollseyes)