Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 15, 2012, 06:05:39 pm
Hello!
It's time for another SOU + HOTU playthrough. Unfortunately, I'm just as bad at making characters now as I was when the games first released, LOL.
I like charismatic characters. I love persuade. I also wanted to try an archer ... which I realize doesn't immediately scream awesome synergy. Would it be playable, though? If so, what should I take? I looked at the epic character builder site but it's hard to tell if those are meant to be playable and they give no instructions for playing those builds, so I didn't find much help there.
I looked at druid maybe; never played one, but I understand you have to buff yourself out the wazoo before fighting, which I was sort of hoping to avoid. I don't really want a character that requires stacking a bunch of buffs first to be effective. Is there any way to make this work? I'd appreciate some tips on class, must-have feats/spells etc.
I realize this is a very tall order. I'm not trying to be lazy, I just never could wrap my head around D&D rulesets.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 16, 2012, 04:43:50 am
Just so you guys know I'm trying, how is this build going to work out? It scares me a little linking Persuade with Intelligence, but it could have just been a slip up I suppose.
Post by: Legacy_Empyre65 on November 16, 2012, 07:23:12 am
Here is an Arcane Archer build that I just played in SoU + The Nether Scrolls bridge module + HotU and I am currtently playing in the Sands of Fate series, which will bring me the rest of the way to level 40.
Sands of Fate 1
Sands of Fate 2
Sands of Fate 3
Copy-and-paste the build into the Notes tab in your journal, so you'll have the build right there in-game.
Resourceful Archer (Rogue 16 / Wizard 2 / Arcane Archer 22)
Elf, Any Alignment
Playable 1 - 40, PvM
Optimized for Sands of Fate
Abilities:
STR: 14
DEX: 18 (34)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 10
Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill
Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Rogue(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
05: Rogue(5)
06: Rogue(6): Weapon Finesse
07: Rogue(7)
08: Rogue(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Wizard(1): Blind Fight, {Scribe Scroll}
10: Arcane Archer(1)
11: Arcane Archer(2)
12: Rogue(9): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Longbow, (DEX=21)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Arcane Archer(4)
15: Arcane Archer(5): Rapid Shot
16: Arcane Archer(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
18: Arcane Archer(7): Called Shot
19: Arcane Archer(8)
20: Arcane Archer(9): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Rogue(11): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
22: Arcane Archer(10)
23: Rogue(12)
24: Arcane Archer(11): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, (DEX=25)
25: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
26: Arcane Archer(12)
27: Rogue(14): Epic Dodge
28: Arcane Archer(13): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=27)
30: Arcane Archer(15): Armor Skin
31: Arcane Archer(16)
32: Rogue(15): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
33: Arcane Archer(17): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=29)
34: Arcane Archer(18): Epic Prowess
35: Arcane Archer(19)
36: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=31)
37: Rogue(16): Improved Sneak Attack I
38: Arcane Archer(21)
39: Arcane Archer(22): Great Dexterity V, Great Dexterity VI, (DEX=33)
40: Wizard(2): DEX+1, (DEX=34)
Stats:
Hitpoints: 320
Skillpoints: 330
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 20/17/35
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9, Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +3
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 39 (melee), 53 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 32/35
Spell Casting: Wizard(1)
Alignment Changes: 0
Skills:
Disable Trap 40(44), Lore 35(37), Open Lock 40(52), Persuade 20(20), Search 40(44), Set Trap 5(19), Spellcraft 43(45), Spot 42(43), Tumble 40(52), UMD 25(25)
01: Disable Trap(4), Lore(4), Open Lock(4), Persuade(4), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Spot(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(4)
02: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(5)
03: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(7)
04: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(9)
05: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(11)
06: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(13)
07: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(15)
08: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(17)
09: Lore(1), Spellcraft(8), Save(12)
10: Lore(1), Spot(2), Save(15)
11: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(19)
12: Disable Trap(4), Lore(1), Open Lock(4), Persuade(4), Search(4), Spot(1), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(3)
13: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(7)
14: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(11)
15: Spot(1), Save(16)
16: Spot(1), Save(21)
17: Disable Trap(5), Open Lock(5), Persuade(5), Search(5), Spot(1), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
18: Lore(4), Spot(1), Save(1)
19: Spot(1), Save(6)
20: Spot(1), Save(11)
21: Disable Trap(4), Open Lock(4), Search(4), Spot(1), Tumble(4), UMD(4)
22: Lore(4), Spot(1), Save(1)
23: Disable Trap(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Spot(1), Tumble(2), UMD(1)
24: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(4)
25: Disable Trap(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Spot(1), Tumble(2), Save(4)
26: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(8)
27: Disable Trap(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Spot(1), Tumble(2), Save(8)
28: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(12)
29: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(16)
30: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(20)
31: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(24)
32: Disable Trap(5), Lore(1), Open Lock(5), Search(5), Spot(1), Tumble(5), Save(12)
33: Spot(1), Save(17)
34: Spot(1), Save(22)
35: Spot(1), Save(27)
36: Spot(1), Save(32)
37: Disable Trap(5), Open Lock(5), Search(5), Spot(1), Tumble(5), Save(21)
38: Spot(1), Save(26)
39: Spot(1), Save(31)
40: Spellcraft(35)
Modifié par Empyre65, 16 novembre 2012 - 07:27 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 16, 2012, 11:32:55 am
Personally, I suggest Elven Bard. There's nothing charismatic about that Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Archer build.
The problem is that Arcane Archer doesn't have Bluff and Persuade as class skills. Just be a pure Bard.
You could either advance only Charisma or Dexterity. I suggest putting Charisma at 16 and then only advance Dexterity.
Bards don't really need so many spells or DCs like Sorcerers. You mainly buff yourself. Basically they are like Paladins. Use spells to buff yourself, not to attack or spam.
Use (Greater) Magic Weapon (though I am not sure if it works on bows), Mage Armor, Displacement, Cat's Grace, Haste, Warcry etc. Don't bother with offensive spells.
Also use your Bard Song, obviously. Lingering Song, Curse Song etc.
Naturally, choose tanks as companions. Dorna for example is a Cleric/Rogue. She can be both a tank/healer and a trapfinder. In HotU, you want Valen and Aribeth.
Specifically, have 10-12 STR, 16 DEX, 12-14 CON, 10-12 INT, 8-10 WIS and 16 CHA.
You don't need Wisdom as you advance Reflex and Will saves anyway, plus you can get Protection from Alignment for complete protection from mind-affecting spells.
For skills, you want Concentration, Persuade, Lore, Perform and maybe Use Magic Device? That covers the basics. Bluff, Appraise and Tumble are also nice to have. You could raise your INT to 14 for example, if you need more skill points.
Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:42 .
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on November 16, 2012, 12:09:25 pm
are you playing solo without henchmans? if not, you have to first decide which ones you will have, you already know which are available because you played this game already so even knowing this will help you very much, for example if you will play with deekin who is bard, why bother with bard AA?Sarielle wrote...
Hello!
It's time for another SOU + HOTU playthrough. Unfortunately, I'm just as bad at making characters now as I was when the games first released, LOL.
I like charismatic characters. I love persuade. I also wanted to try an archer ... which I realize doesn't immediately scream awesome synergy. Would it be playable, though? If so, what should I take? I looked at the epic character builder site but it's hard to tell if those are meant to be playable and they give no instructions for playing those builds, so I didn't find much help there.
Also, if you take henchies, you will be able to finish the game whether you have powerbuild or not.
To be honest, both proposed builds aren't usefull for OC. They are lvl 40 based which is useless for you because the game ends around 23lvl. So the really usefull and powerfull build would be such that takes this into consideration. That requires more often skill dumps than at lvl 40.
So my proposal: if you are not taking any bard henchman, go bard AA route, if you do take sorcerrer or paladin
either 8sorcerer 2paladin or 2fighter then AA
or 5paladin 2sorc then AA
how you take it is up to you, if you want to have this more like caster AA then you probably find more advantaging to take more sorc than 8levels, so be it you will lose extra attack at lvl 20, but that isnt such an issue in OC
also fighter would be better instead of paladin but take whatever suits your style, these few extra feats that fighter gives you won't make a life/death difference anyway
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:10 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 16, 2012, 12:16:52 pm
ShaDoOoW wrote...
So my proposal: if you are not taking any bard henchman, go bard AA route, if you do take sorcerrer or paladin
either 8sorcerer 2paladin or 2fighter then AA
or 5paladin 2sorc then AA
She specifically said she wants a charismatic archer with persuade, though.
The Paladin/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer build is solid but she will have crap Persuade and much fewer skills.
Plus, any high Charisma is wasted since her Sorc levels would be too few to make any use of it. And she wants to be an archer, so she needs high Dex on top of that.
A pure Elven Bard covers all the bases. Archer, charismatic, great utility, skills, spells and persuade. Let's not underestimate the Bard Song which gives even nicer bonuses, can be cast many times and affects your whole party.
Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:34 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 16, 2012, 12:56:28 pm
Here's another idea. Instead of Bard, go Elven Rogue and take 1 Shadowdancer level. You need Dodge and Mobility for it.
Relies less on spells and buffs and more on stealth and sneak attacks. For those enemies that cannot be defeated with sneak attacks, there's Use Magic Device. Use scrolls, wands, monk items etc.
Whatever build you use, you might want Weapon Focus, Improved Critical in Longbow and Rapid Shot feats.
Slippery Mind is pretty good for your sucky will saves.
For epic, Epic Dodge and Self-Concealment are pretty good, defensive feats.
Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:09 .
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on November 16, 2012, 01:02:09 pm
well AFAIK paladin have persuade as a class skill, you can start with dexterity and charisma both at 16, and then take paladin as often you want skill dump into social skills (which are overestimated btw)
the wiz/AA is always better choice, but if it must be charisma based, why don't use the sorc/pala charisma synergy?
And I didnt said that bard AA is bad, but if you take deekin as your henchman, what is the second bard song for?
Lets not needlessly argue what is better if we don't know OP's priorities.
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:03 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 16, 2012, 01:16:13 pm
ShaDoOoW wrote...
well AFAIK paladin have persuade as a class skill, you can start with dexterity and charisma both at 16, and then take paladin as often you want skill dump into social skills (which are overestimated btw)
the wiz/AA is always better choice, but if it must be charisma based, why don't use the sorc/pala charisma synergy?
And I didnt said that bard AA is bad, but if you take deekin as your henchman, what is the second bard song for?
Lets not needlessly argue what is better if we don't know OP's priorities.
Indeed but neither the Sorcerer, nor Arcane Archer has Persuade as class skills. So it will be quite low, making it worthless. You can pull it off if you max Charisma and go Paladin/rest Sorcerer but not for an archer.
I would suggest Dorna for both builds. If she makes a Bard, then Deekin is redundant as Dorna can tank and be the meatshield as well as cover trapfinding skills.
If she makes a Rogue, then again she needs a tank and have her focus only on Cleric training.
No argueing, I'm just trying to cover all the needs for her character.
The Rogue is pretty much perfect for what she asks. No buffing needed, tons of damage, tons of skills, much easier to play than Bards.
Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:31 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 16, 2012, 05:18:05 pm
Luminus wrote...
Here's another idea. Instead of Bard, go Elven Rogue and take 1 Shadowdancer level. You need Dodge and Mobility for it.
Relies less on spells and buffs and more on stealth and sneak attacks. For those enemies that cannot be defeated with sneak attacks, there's Use Magic Device. Use scrolls, wands, monk items etc.
Whatever build you use, you might want Weapon Focus, Improved Critical in Longbow and Rapid Shot feats.
Slippery Mind is pretty good for your sucky will saves.
For epic, Epic Dodge and Self-Concealment are pretty good, defensive feats.
Would this allow for good persuade? I definitely like the idea of relying less heavily on buffing.
The bard also sounds interesting, but my last bard was a collossal failure (maybe because I didn't know how to play one, lol). Can you point me to a good build there?
As for henchmen, I usually took Deekin but I also like Dorna, but had never taken Xanos (so I thought I might this time). I don't have to, though. It's been so long I've forgotten what all of them say now anyways, which is the main reason I take henchmen.
Modifié par Sarielle, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:45 .
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 16, 2012, 05:42:09 pm
Are you planning on stopping after HotU? A combo AA/Bard would work just fine, but how many levels in each will depend on what the max level.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 16, 2012, 05:51:12 pm
Nope, this is just to play SOU + HotU
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 16, 2012, 06:51:10 pm
Elf
Bard/Arcane Archer
14
16
12
14
8
14
Bards/AAs get 4 skill points per level. Therefore, you'll get 6 per level and likely want to invest in these skills:
Bluff
Intimidate
Perform
Persuade
Spellcraft
Tumble
If you're willing, dropping some of the social skills (Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade) for Use Magic Device and/or Stealth could be beneficial. Bard levels are taken frequently here to insure the social skills are kept as much up to date as possible.
All stat gains go to dexterity.
01 Ba/01 Point Blank Shot
02 Ba/02
03 Ba/03 Weapon Focus: Longbow
04 Ba/04
05 Ba/05
06 Ba/06 Rapid Shot
07 Ba/07
08 Ba/08
09 AA/01 Skill Focus: Social Skill
10 AA/02
11 Ba/09
12 AA/03 Skill Focus: Social Skill
13 AA/04
14 Ba/10
15 AA/05 Curse Song
16 AA/06
17 Ba/11
18 AA/07 Improved Critical: Longbow
19 AA/08
20 Ba/12
21 AA/09 Epic Reputation
22 AA/10
23 Ba/13
24 AA/11 Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
25 AA/12
26 Ba/14
27 AA/13 Epic Prowess
28 AA/14 Great Dexterity II
29 Ba/15
30 AA/15 Armor Skin
Modifié par MagicalMaster, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:04 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 16, 2012, 09:34:11 pm
Hmm, that looks fun. I have done the intimidate route before, maybe I'll drop that for UMD (since that skill always opens up a lot of fun possibilities).
Any spells I really shouldn't pass up, other than some self-buffs?
Really appreciate the build!
Modifié par Sarielle, 16 novembre 2012 - 09:54 .
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 16, 2012, 11:06:26 pm
Not really. Improved Invis is the biggest one. Wounding Whispers and War Cry are good if you can do em. Mage Armor gives 1 AC.
I also forgot about Curse Song somehow, but if you're skipping Intimidate then grab that instead (edited previous post). Also, probably better to get Epic Skill Focus: Persuade instead of Epic Reputation if you're skipping Intimidate.
Post by: Legacy_Empyre65 on November 16, 2012, 11:40:55 pm
Somebody here said that HotU ends at level 23. No it doesn't. It ends at around level 27 or 28.
With my Rogue AA build, I told Dorna to level only as Cleric, and she became quite a powerhouse. Since I didn't drink a Clarity potion, she had to take on Herodis by herself, and she won.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 16, 2012, 11:50:46 pm
Great! I'll probably fire this up after work tonight. It's funny, after all these years, after all the very pretty games I've played ... these still more than hold their own.
I'm guessing you guys are excited about the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition?
I actually never played 'em, been putting it off since I heard that was coming out. Really looking forward to playing a Chaotic Stupid Wild Mage with some real life friends, lol.EDIT: I'm not against a rogue in concept, Empyre; I just really enjoy my conversation skills! lol The combat in these games is secondary for me, as long as I'm not a super gimp.
Modifié par Sarielle, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:59 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 17, 2012, 12:11:29 am
Sarielle wrote...
Would this allow for good persuade? I definitely like the idea of relying less heavily on buffing.
The bard also sounds interesting, but my last bard was a collossal failure (maybe because I didn't know how to play one, lol). Can you point me to a good build there?
As for henchmen, I usually took Deekin but I also like Dorna, but had never taken Xanos (so I thought I might this time). I don't have to, though. It's been so long I've forgotten what all of them say now anyways, which is the main reason I take henchmen.
Put 12-14 in Charisma and maximize the Persuade skill. This is not possible with Arcane Archer or Sorcerer, unfortunately, as they are not class skills.
With the Rogue, you don't rely on buffs at all. Except if you buy/find scrolls/wands of Protection from Alignment. You have tons of skills that are always on.
The Bard has much limited skill points, half of the Rogue's actually. The Bard is an utility/support class. Buffing himself and others, and he relies on self-buffing very much.
More than the Cleric/Druid/Sorcerers. Because Clerics/Druids can rely on melee if their spells fail.
And the Sorcerer can summon all shorts of monsters or just blast anything into oblivion before they get close to him. Or you know, cast Time Stop.
The Rogue is both a huge damage dealer to those not immune to sneak attacks and has tons of skills you can maximize for lots of fun.
Hide, Move Silently, Persuade, Tumble, Disable Trap, Open Lock, Search, Use Magic Device, Lore, Appraise. That's with an Elf with 14 INT.
You only need 1 Shadowdancer level to make him awesome.
Also Elves are perfect for Rogues as they get Longbow and can search automatically, plus +2 Dex. That -2 Con is unimportant. It's just 1 HP/level less. You can fix it by taking Toughness or just being a little careful.
Plus +2 to saves versus mind-affecting spells.
For companions, I strongly suggest taking Dorna and tell her to only level as a Cleric. You do all the trap stuff. She has great HP and saves, can Turn Undead, heavy armor and shields to tank and she can buff you and heal you.
Plus her good saves are Fortitude and Will, you know the ones that you lack. Plus nice Dwarf bonuses. Perfect.
Don't bother with Xanos. He is a Half-Orc Barbarian with 13 STR (lol). And a Sorcerer. You don't want any spellcasting companion in NwN1, believe me. Their AI sucks immensely and they will get you killed. Even with Tony K's AI mod to improve it, it's too risky and random for me. I want complete control with my casters.
Don't take Deekin. He is a Bard/Rogue, I believe. Again, you do all the trap stuff. And his low hp and armor will get you both killed too many times to count.
For HotU. Take Linu, she is an elven Cleric and Daelan. Deekin improves as he gets Red Dragon Disciple but still, crappy armor and weapon proficiencies, I think.
Later, take Valen (he is romanceable) and Paladin Aribeth. Two uber-tanks that compliment your skills and protect you as you do the other stuff.
Nathyrra is a mess. Rogue/Wizard/Assassin. Redundant, hate NPC casters, Assassin is useless if you don't micromanage him.
I once saw an epic build that was simply a Rogue/SD/Fighter(?) halfling using Shortbows. And I have soloed HotU with a STR-based Katana-using Monk/Assassin. (Basically I recreated Tatsumaru from Tenchu 2 for pure fun, didn't care for optimization.)
So I know for a fact that just a Rogue is simply great.
Modifié par Luminus, 17 novembre 2012 - 12:18 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 17, 2012, 12:55:36 am
AHMIGAD. Too many cool choices, LOL. What is the full starting stat breakdown for that rogue archer?
12-14 CHA
14 INT
I'm assuming 18 DEX but what about the rest?
I don't mind sticking with Dorna. I think I took Deekin my last playthrough and I always liked Dorna, so I wouldn't be against that at all. I always want to try Nathyrra but I agree ... she's so bad, lol.
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 17, 2012, 01:21:02 am
I wouldn't recommend the rogue archer. It's practically useless against enemies immune to sneaks/criticals...which typically happen to be the toughest boss enemies. And even 5-10 damage reduction/resistance completely ruins it in those cases.
Basically, it lets you destroy stuff that is easy to beat anyway. So...yeah.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 17, 2012, 01:27:10 am
^ You don't think UMD is enough compensation for that? Genuine question, not rhetorical.
I've never played a rogue at all so I admit I'm intrigued by it.Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 17, 2012, 02:10:31 am
No, because at higher levels the wands and scrolls just don't have high enough saves or damage.
A melee rogue can get away with a bit more since melee weapons typically have more damage by default (especially with the +10 enhancement), archers don't get that. Which is a flaw in the standard game, but one you have to deal with.
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on November 17, 2012, 03:17:04 am
The DCs in game are set so the average character which takes that skill cross class still had a chance to success. Therefore *maxing* these skills, especially when you are charisma based character that can cast Eagle's splendor on self is a bit needless. What MagicalMaster wrote is really good build of OC, the inclusion of the skill focuses is however definitely waste since you will max persuade/intimidate every second level so you will have already 100% chance for these conversation choices. Curse song and Lingering Song will be better choices instead or Dodge and Mobility which would allow to take one level of Shadow Dancer.Sarielle wrote...
Would this allow for good persuade?
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:21 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 17, 2012, 04:07:11 am
Hmm, OK. Welllll ... where would you recommend that Shadow Dancer level on the bard? And, what is the goal for getting that? HIPS I assume?
Modifié par Sarielle, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:07 .
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 17, 2012, 07:03:34 am
HiPS would be the goal, yeah. If you take it below 20 you'll lose an AB point, though. Theoretically better to take it after, but then you have less time to use it. I'm not really sure if it's needed for your build.
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on November 17, 2012, 09:53:13 am
Indeed, if taken pre-epic there is 1BAB loss. But this isn't big deal really. 1AB point isn't problem, not in OC generally where creature's AC is very low and not at all with AA which has ton of bonus AB with bow. You get additional attacks one level later but thats not problem I think, you still get 4attacks per round.MagicalMaster wrote...
HiPS would be the goal, yeah. If you take it below 20 you'll lose an AB point, though. Theoretically better to take it after, but then you have less time to use it. I'm not really sure if it's needed for your build.
It isn't maybe needed (but thinking this way, what is?) but there is absolutely no loss if you take SD at epic levels, so why not take it, HIPS might be usefull in tough battles.
Also, taking second shadowdancer level wouldn't be so pointless, uncanny dodge when character has high dexterity (not so important in OC, but again - what is?) and evasion which is certainly usefull, then the earlier the better.
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 09:55 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 17, 2012, 11:20:43 am
Hmm, I thought I would miss lots of posts, since I had to go to sleep.
Indeed, the pure rogue archer works less well but that's mainly because of the stupid bow enchantment restrictions. You cannot enchant bows as much as melee weapons in the games.
So it's the archer part that makes it less useful, not the rogue part.
If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.
I can imagine the tediousness of recasting buffs all the time with a Bard. Also you will be resting even more often than my Sorc since he could destroy most stuff with Time Stops, Isaacs for offense and Premonition etc for defense.
The best compromise, would be Rogue/Bard or Wizard/AA. Alternating with Rogue now and then to keep the nice skills maxed. That way you combine my rogue suggestion and the AA suggestions.
If you get Bard levels, you get more skills and Bard Song, but the Wizard helps you not get a multiclass xp penalty with the Elf.
The Rogue/caster/AA doesn't rely on any buffs, unlike the Bard/AA. The build from Empyre in the first page is probably the best one, as you don't rely on Rogues or buffs and you remain effective, while doing great damage with Sneak Attack to those weak to it. And for anything else, there's Imbue Arrow, UMD and companions.
Though you don't need Spot as enemies never hide, I believe. And I would take a Shadowdancer level absolutely in case of emergency, as soon as possible. Spellcraft is decent as it gives you bonus to saves against spells, though not necessary.
Also with a Rogue/X/AA you don't rely on Rogue companions so you become even better protected by tanks. The ones I suggested in my post.
While the Bard/AA build is probably better with the tons of buffs, it's more tedious and difficult to play than the Rogue/x/AA build. But that's the case with all casters.
Modifié par Luminus, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:29 .
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 17, 2012, 05:08:12 pm
Luminus wrote...
If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.
Posting more later, but...no. You don't rely on many buffs.
You basically have Cat's Grace, Improved Invis...and that's about it. Your main "buff" is Bard/Curse Song and you're not very reliant on that either except for tougher fights. You're basically an archer with bard song and maybe a few other random buffs.
Post by: Legacy_Shadooow on November 17, 2012, 06:36:23 pm
MM is right. With Bard/AA you get exactly same power (excluding sneak attacks) and buffs are on top of that. Also most buffs are on long term. You basically cast mage armor, ghostly visage, cats grace and improved invisibility and then you only singing. Possibly you can cast haste, but at lower levels its really short and later in game you can get perma haste items.MagicalMaster wrote...
Luminus wrote...
If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.
Posting more later, but...no. You don't rely on many buffs.
You basically have Cat's Grace, Improved Invis...and that's about it. Your main "buff" is Bard/Curse Song and you're not very reliant on that either except for tougher fights. You're basically an archer with bard song and maybe a few other random buffs.
Bard song is shorter but AA actually don't rely on that, still the minute is the duration of an average fight. And you can always take lingering song which isn't so bad investment in OC where you can acces lasting inspiration only near before the end of the game.
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 06:37 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 17, 2012, 10:04:35 pm
Neng the elf bard has been born.
Unfortunately she's not as persuasive as she thought, because she ended up failing the "Shut up or die" roll on the crazy prophet there in Hilltop and uh...sort of killed him.Whoops.
EDIT: And lest I come across as ungrateful, I'm having a blast guys. Thanks so much for all the help. It added a layer to the character's personaltiy for me, lol.
Modifié par Sarielle, 18 novembre 2012 - 12:41 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 18, 2012, 06:58:04 am
Sarielle wrote...
Neng the elf bard has been born.
Whoops.
EDIT: And lest I come across as ungrateful, I'm having a blast guys. Thanks so much for all the help. It added a layer to the character's personaltiy for me, lol.
Well, since you started already, there's no point arguing about builds any further.
That's the nature of this game and the various builds. Nothing is perfect. One build does one thing better than the other and something worse. Welcome to Neverwinter Nights. 
Take Dorna and have her level in both Cleric and Rogue. At least you won't have to step on traps to "disarm" them.
For Persuade checks, just reload the game or pay them if the option is available.
You also take Deekin and have him level as Rogue only, up to you. See what fits.
For HotU, you could take Nathyrra and have her level only as Rogue. Better than Wizard or Assassin, at least.
You chose a tricky build but you learn by doing and learning new things. See it as a challenge and everything becomes fun. Glad we helped, one way or another.
Modifié par Luminus, 18 novembre 2012 - 07:00 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 18, 2012, 07:24:59 am
I definitely don't mind further input, though. I replay these every year or so and I can always tuck builds back so I don't have to bother you guys next time
I'm also not that far in at all, heh. So starting over isn't out of the question.And I know I could have reloaded, but barring a wipe I prefer to keep trucking with whatever I do or don't get. Makes playthroughs more interesting. Found out that guy dying meant that I couldn't help the Red Wizard, for instance. Fun consequence.
I did try starting out as a rogue too, and felt more powerful. Obviously, no boss fights though. I considered bard/rogue but since I didn't know the stat breakdown/what to take at what level etc. so I just went with what was laid out already, lol.
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 18, 2012, 11:11:29 am
Haha, I see.
Well, Bard has buffs and spells, Rogue has skills, sneak attack and stealth. So it's up to you to chose your playstyle.
If you chose Bard, you take Rogue NPCs.
If you chose Rogue, you take tank companions.
With Bard you need to know when to cast the various spells and Bard/Curse Song.
With Rogue how to get into position to sneak attack and which enemies are sneak attackable.
Also, I think the Sneak Attack damage is very good to have in SoU.
Bards take a while to get their great spells, like all casters. Improved Invisibility doesn't come until 10th Bard level.
And I consider Hide in Plain Sight superior as it it's infinite and you always can use potions of invisibility. Though that 50% concealment is nice. But if you can hide instantly all the time, they cannot hit you anyway. Hit and hide tactics are awesome, like a sniper.
Don't forget that with UMD you can equip the tasty Monk items. Like Robes of the Dark Moon. Permahasted. That's +1 attack, +4 AC etc. Plus their boots.
And don't underestimate that 1 Wizard level if you go the Rogue/Wiz way. You get some very very nice spells if you take it at second level:
Mage Armor, True Strike, Protection from Alignment, Identify, Summon Creature I, Grease, Expenditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Shield. Plus a familiar for another meatshield to protect you.
There are builds in the previous page that list both combinations. Bard/AA and Rogue/Wiz/(1 SD?)/AA.
I say test both builds in HotU since you start at 15 level. See which build suits you best.
Don't forget to get the second AA level asap. That 10d6 damage from Imbue Arrow is just great and softens bosses.
The choice is yours.
Modifié par Luminus, 18 novembre 2012 - 11:48 .
Post by: Legacy_Empyre65 on November 18, 2012, 04:19:07 pm
That imbue arrow was great against groups of shadovars.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 18, 2012, 04:43:45 pm
Luminus wrote...
There are builds in the previous page that list both combinations. Bard/AA and Rogue/Wiz/(1 SD?)/AA.
Oh yes, I looked this one over but the CHA was low and persuade pretty low, too. I was just ultimately concerned that going pure rogue would leave me with unkillable bosses, and a rogue + arcane archer would leave me with crappy social skills.
So I went with this one, probably dropping a social skill for UMD.
Modifié par Sarielle, 18 novembre 2012 - 05:37 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 18, 2012, 07:24:29 pm
Sarielle wrote...
Luminus wrote...
There are builds in the previous page that list both combinations. Bard/AA and Rogue/Wiz/(1 SD?)/AA.
Oh yes, I looked this one over but the CHA was low and persuade pretty low, too. I was just ultimately concerned that going pure rogue would leave me with unkillable bosses, and a rogue + arcane archer would leave me with crappy social skills.
So I went with this one, probably dropping a social skill for UMD.
Not really if you alternate between Arcane Archer and Rogue as Empyre's build shows. You can save all your skill points at level up, so when you get that Rogue level, you can put the skills in Persuade etc.
Both the Rogue and the Bard, have Persuade as class skills, so they can both max it. But the Rogue has more skill points that he can put somewhere else.
10 Charisma with 14 Charisma is exactly +2 point difference in conversation skills and UMD. Not that huge of a loss, as you can use Potions of Eagle's Splendor, or some persuade item. If there is any. I think it does.
You could just take those 4 points away from Strength so it will be 10 STR and 14 CHA. You only gain +2 damage from it and only if it's a Composite or Mighty Bow.
You don't really need more than one conversation skill, I think. Just raising Persuade is more than enough.
Dropping UMD might be unimportant or not. I would sacrifice some other skill.
You don't need Spot or Listen as no enemy hides ever. Though I might be mistaken. It's been a while.
By the way, if you think you have screwed something up with your build, don't be afraid. You can relevel from level 1.
Press ~ in game to bring up the console prompt on the top left. Then type DebugMode 1 to enable the cheats.
Then, type GiveXP -xxx. xxx is the amount of xp you have. Then DebugMode 0 to disable the command prompt.
For example, GiveXP -5000, (with a minus) removes 5000xp. That brings you to your desired level. Then type GiveXP 5000 to give that xp back and level up.
Yes, if you were not aware of this command, you can use it to gain max xp which I don't recommend because there would be no challenge at that and it would be pure cheating.
I only use it to fix details in my build as retraining rules exist in PnP. It's far better than to replay the entire game.
So if you want to experiment, give yourself 28-30 levels so that you can plan yourself how you will proceed and finish and then remove the extra xp. Or start a new game.
Modifié par Luminus, 18 novembre 2012 - 07:36 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 18, 2012, 08:44:53 pm
What is spellcraft doing for the Rogue/Arcane Archer build?
Post by: Legacy_kamal_ on November 18, 2012, 08:58:38 pm
The character gains a +1 bonus for every 5 ranks in this skill to all saving throws against spells.Sarielle wrote...
What is spellcraft doing for the Rogue/Arcane Archer build?
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 18, 2012, 09:54:50 pm
Ah, I gotcha. Thank you.
Loved the Path of Evil campaign, by the way. Secretly, Lawful Affably Evil characters are always my favorites. :3
Post by: Legacy_Aelis Eine on November 19, 2012, 12:45:20 am
I always thought a Charismatic Archer would be some Divine Might archery build. If you're stopping at HotU I'd probably go with something like Human Bard/Fighter/Blackguard. Should be able to get Bard 16 for maxed song and level 6 spells, Fighter 6 for Epic Spec and Blackguard 4 for Divine Might and 1d6 Sneak Attack before the end. The 2 songs and War Cry will easily make up for the lack of AA AB. With Epic Spec, Divine Might and 1d6 Sneak Attack tacked on to Song and War Cry, you can easily get +23.5 bonus damage on top of your base bow and arrow damage. If you have a Mighty bow, you can stack double Bull's Strengths (Blackguard + Potion or Spell) for up to +10 strength to get even more damage.
Course, the trouble with a Divine Might archery build is the stat spread. You'll need 13+ Strength for the prereqs, 16 Cha to power Divine Might and get spells, 16+ Dex to hit stuff, decent Int for all the good skills Bards get and Con to not die.
My advice is 10 Con/10 Int, take Toughness as a level 1 feat, use your range and buffs to make yourself harder to kill, and be very judicious about the skills you take =p Perform should be maxed, Tumble should be maxed. There's a few good bows that are AA-only so you'll need UMD for those. Then there's Persuade which is kind of the reason you wanted a Cha build. That should leave room for 1 more skill, probably Concentration or Spellcraft.
Also, run through the OC Prelude to start at level 3. It's a little meta, but you kind of need Bard 2/Fighter 1 for Summon Creature I and Longbow Proficiency. A Dex-based Level 1 Bard is... unplayable in NWN =P
Modifié par Aelis Eine, 19 novembre 2012 - 12:51 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 19, 2012, 04:41:04 pm
It works but it might be too hard to play in the beginning, too complex and requiring too many buffs for her.Aelis Eine wrote...
The Divine Might build does more damage but loses lots of AB as you need to max Charisma for damage which is another limited buff.
Personally I think AA is more to the point as you don't need magic bows, you automatically increase their AB and damage permanently through it's class features plus you get Imbue Arrow for massive Area of Effect damage.
The Rogue/Wiz/AA is basically set and forget, no buffs, except for some through potions or the Wizard spells which are not necessary.
And you get Sneak Attack damage, enhancement damage from AA, Imbue Arrow, tons of skills, you don't need other Rogues NPCs and it's just easier to play.
But let the others and Sarielle say what they think too.
Modifié par Luminus, 19 novembre 2012 - 05:10 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 19, 2012, 05:56:04 pm
Soo...at some point during my early running around Hilltop I lost Dorna. She didn't die ... she's just nowhere to be found. She's not back at Drogan's and she's not anywhere else. Is this fixable? lol. I hadn't saved in a bit and I'm not redoing again.
EDIT: LOL never mind, found her in the tavern. Pete's sake Dorna, Neng likes a good drink as much as the next person but it's kinda not the time.
Modifié par Sarielle, 19 novembre 2012 - 05:59 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 19, 2012, 07:18:51 pm
Sarielle wrote...
Soo...at some point during my early running around Hilltop I lost Dorna. She didn't die ... she's just nowhere to be found. She's not back at Drogan's and she's not anywhere else. Is this fixable? lol. I hadn't saved in a bit and I'm not redoing again.
EDIT: LOL never mind, found her in the tavern. Pete's sake Dorna, Neng likes a good drink as much as the next person but it's kinda not the time.
You should quicksave all the time. Before you talk to important people, before buying or selling anything and when you enter and about to exit new areas. It's free and it's instant.
I would make various hard saves after each act or before you exit the game for the day. I do it to make sure I don't screw up badly for some reason.
For example I number them.
Then when you finish the game, just delete them. They are not taking much hard drive space anyway.
By the way, what's the build you chose to go with?
Modifié par Luminus, 19 novembre 2012 - 07:21 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 19, 2012, 08:04:58 pm
I went with the rogue/AA build. I enjoy handling my own locks/traps for a change. Feels very powerful at low levels. Nice change of pace! lol.
And yeah, I do save fairly often but I hadn't been paying attention to when I last saw her, lol. Anyways, what's the shortcut for quicksave? I used to know it but not anymore, lol.
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 19, 2012, 08:40:37 pm
Sarielle wrote...
I went with the rogue/AA build. I enjoy handling my own locks/traps for a change. Feels very powerful at low levels. Nice change of pace! lol.
And yeah, I do save fairly often but I hadn't been paying attention to when I last saw her, lol. Anyways, what's the shortcut for quicksave? I used to know it but not anymore, lol.
Awesome. It is. Melee types are powerful at lower levels, magic types at higher. ...Clerics at both. xD
Take that Wizard level at level 2 if you can or asap. Mage Armor stacks with normal armor, plus you can get a familiar (get the pseudodragon or something tough), Summon Monster 1, Protection from Alignment etc. They won't last long but helpful in tough fights.
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 19, 2012, 10:18:49 pm
Sarielle wrote...
I went with the rogue/AA build. I enjoy handling my own locks/traps for a change. Feels very powerful at low levels. Nice change of pace! lol.
The only difference in combat is sneak attack at that point (and Bard has Bard Song). And while 2d6 sneak at level 3 might be nice, I'm just warning you that most tough enemies will be sneak and/or crit immune. So unless you want lock/trap skills, you are much better off going with bard/AA.
The easy fights might be a harder (especially at the lowest levels), but the hardest fights will be much easier (especially at the higher levels).
Post by: Legacy_Aelis Eine on November 19, 2012, 11:13:30 pm
Yea, Rogue/AA is like playing Rock, Paper, Scissors with only a scissors. You cut through paper with ease, then you hit a rock and have to slowly ****** away at it. Like with the hordes of skeletons with crit/sneak attack immunity and 50% piercing immunity that the OCs love to throw at you.
Of course, once you get SD it's almost impossible to actually lose unless you're fighting a dragon or some other True Seeing enemy. But you'll have to be prepared to take a very very long time to kill certain things.
Lock/Trap skills shouldn't be a biggie actually. If I remember right, a Bard taking 1 rank Open Lock and Disable Trap and buffing the rest with Song can open almost everything in the OCs because of Take 20.
Modifié par Aelis Eine, 19 novembre 2012 - 11:20 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 20, 2012, 02:34:32 am
Ah well, we'll see how it goes. Not starting over yet again.
Post by: Legacy_Aelis Eine on November 20, 2012, 02:50:38 am
It can work, but you'll have to be a pack rat and hoard a lot of scrolls, potions and traps. Especially Claritys and Mind Blanks, Death Wards and Ice/Sonic traps. And know when to use them too. It's really tedious and I hated doing it when I played one, but if you do your skills right you should never hit a brick wall, just lots of very very steep brick slopes that will make you curse and swear at the broken archery system.
Modifié par Aelis Eine, 20 novembre 2012 - 02:55 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 20, 2012, 02:52:00 am
At least I've got the packrat thing down, haha.
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 20, 2012, 02:56:14 am
Sarielle wrote...
Ah well, we'll see how it goes. Not starting over yet again.
Don't forget there are always magic arrows. Plus wands, scrolls, rods etc. Yeah, they don't do as much damage or have DC high as proper casters but still do their job.
SoU has kobolds, gnolls, giants, animals, people, bugs, mephits etc.
www.gamefaqs.com/pc/563551-neverwinter-nights-shadows-of-undrentide/faqs/51548 . Section 18.
HotU has drow, orcs, trolls, duergar, slaads, vrocks, driders etc.
www.gamefaqs.com/pc/563552-neverwinter-nights-hordes-of-the-underdark/faqs/51555. Section 18, also.
Those are weak to sneak attacks and you have companions for everything else and Imbue Arrow also.
It's not like the campaigns are swarmed only with undead.
There are, yes, have Cleric-focused Dorna pummel them with maces or hammers and Valen smash them to a million pieces with his Heavy Flail while you shoot elemental arrow that DO damage.
It's not fun being perfect at every situation. Switching tactics is fun.
Modifié par Luminus, 20 novembre 2012 - 03:11 .
Post by: Legacy_Aelis Eine on November 20, 2012, 03:11:00 am
In SoU, there was an undead crypt in Chapter 1, and the Interlude was almost completely undead.
In HotU, there was a part with Vampire Monks and a Dracolich, and another part with Adamantine and Mithril golems. They all have high SR, so scrolls will be wasted on them.
I honestly wouldn't bother with elemental arrows. If you have a stack in your inventory, cool. If not, don't waste gold buying them unless it's the infinite ones at a certain spoileriffic place. Just take the Weapon Finesse feat and use a mace yourself. Scroll it up with Bless Weapon and Flame Weapon. Saves a lot more time.
Modifié par Aelis Eine, 20 novembre 2012 - 03:11 .
Post by: Legacy_Luminus on November 20, 2012, 03:20:45 am
Aelis Eine wrote...
In SoU, there was an undead crypt in Chapter 1, and the Interlude was almost completely undead.
In HotU, there was a part with Vampire Monks and a Dracolich, and another part with Adamantine and Mithril golems. They all have high SR, so scrolls will be wasted on them.
I honestly wouldn't bother with elemental arrows. If you have a stack in your inventory, cool. If not, don't waste gold buying them unless it's the infinite ones at a certain spoileriffic place. Just take the Weapon Finesse feat and use a mace yourself. Scroll it up with Bless Weapon and Flame Weapon. Saves a lot more time.
The gold you would spend on buying weapons or enchantments for it, is going to buy arrows. Since AA takes care of the enhancement bonus part. But yes, if you find them it's even better.
But neither the Bard/AA can deal with those enemies. I'm not talking about a Divine Might archer.
Also the golems are immune to all magic, does that make a mage useless too? And before you say that mages have summons, those fall quite easily to the golems and they have damage reduction also.
About the undead crypt, which she probably got past it or not, she has Dorna for it. Maybe some wands too. Even if she didn't take UMD, a Wiz level provides you access to them anyway, unless I'm mistaken.
And I am not sure the Dracolich is easy to beat with ANY build. Maybe with Paladin that has Lay on Hands or one that uses Divine Might?
Still, according to the FAQs, the majority of monsters are sneak attackable.
Modifié par Luminus, 20 novembre 2012 - 03:28 .
Post by: Legacy_Aelis Eine on November 20, 2012, 04:12:03 am
Luminus wrote...
The gold you would spend on buying weapons or enchantments for it, is going to buy arrows. Since AA takes care of the enhancement bonus part. But yes, if you find them it's even better.
But neither the Bard/AA can deal with those enemies. I'm not talking about a Divine Might archer.
Also the golems are immune to all magic, does that make a mage useless too? And before you say that mages have summons, those fall quite easily to the golems and they have damage reduction also.
About the undead crypt, which she probably got past it or not, she has Dorna for it. Maybe some wands too. Even if she didn't take UMD, a Wiz level provides you access to them anyway, unless I'm mistaken.
And I am not sure the Dracolich is easy to beat with ANY build. Maybe with Paladin that has Lay on Hands or one that uses Divine Might?
Still, according to the FAQs, the majority of monsters is sneak attackable.
The only thing really needed for an undead-killing mace is a +2d6 damage when you get to that point. If I remember right, a +2 mace is about the same price as a stack of 99 1d6 arrows, and those 99 arrows will be used up in about 3 minutes on an archer with Rapid Shot and Haste. The +2 mace lasts for ~3 hours of gameplay before it needs to be replaced with a +5, or simply needs a GMW to cover the AB.
Mages don't actually need to cast spells to kill things in epic levels. By that point all they really need is Acid Sheath, Elemental Shield, Death Armor and maybe some resistance items and buffs if they dont have Warding yet. Then they can just kind of stand there and chug potions while everyone kills themselves.
I think the Dracolich has 26 SR? So with a Mords (-9 SR) and a Greater Spell Penetration (+4 Caster level check), just about any mage should be able to open with a GMS, Time Stop and drop 3 more GMSes kill it before it has a chance to react.
A fully buffed Cleric should be able to drop a Heal or Mass Heal on it from Greater Sanctuary and follow up with a quick hit to take it down. If not, it gets about 4 more tries or so, so the odds are against the Dracolich avoiding all 5 GSed flatfoot healbombs.
For Melee, other than the Paladin, Just about everyone else will have to go through its 3 heals. A straight up Str-based Bard X/Blackguard 4 with Divine Might and Curse Song might be able to buff their damage enough and cut its Concentration enough to interrupt its heals.
Modifié par Aelis Eine, 20 novembre 2012 - 04:12 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 20, 2012, 04:28:33 am
Yeah, crypt wasn't too bad. I don't have the difficulty ramped all the way up, though. It's in the middle by default so that's where I left it.
Post by: Legacy_cds13 on November 20, 2012, 10:10:31 am
Well, as a bard I wouldn't see the fact to bring with you another bard (i.e. Sharwyn or Deekin) as a real problem. Let them cast the "bard song" while you use the "curse song", that would be a nice sinergy. You don't have to worry to put any points on "lore", they would recognize items for you (Deekin is better than Sharwyn at this while Sharwyn is a better fighter than the kobold).
Post by: Legacy_MagicalMaster on November 21, 2012, 04:46:07 am
Luminus wrote...
But neither the Bard/AA can deal with those enemies. I'm not talking about a Divine Might archer.
Bard/AA potentially has more AA levels, can raise AB/AC/Damage with Bard Song, and can debuff AB/AC/Damage with Curse Song. If you raise your AB by 2 and drop their AC by 2, you're often doing 40%-60% more damage per round. And taking the equivalent less. Something like a 17 bard/23 AA would really rip stuff up with +2 AB/+5 AC to friends and -2 AB/-5 AC to enemies (could do 20/20 if you wanted the longer bard song).
Luminus wrote...
And I am not sure the Dracolich is easy to beat with ANY build. Maybe with Paladin that has Lay on Hands or one that uses Divine Might?
I've always shredded it.
Though I've mainly played Weapon Master, Sorcerer, and Cleric.
Here's something I'd find amusing: give me a general build type to do the Dracolich with and I'll see how I fare. I'll try to do it within the next weekish and FRAPS it.
P.S. What golems were immune to magic? That's not really ringing a bell.
Post by: Legacy_MrZork on November 21, 2012, 09:04:56 pm
And, the cult dracolich in HotU is generally not as tough as the standard NWN dracolich, though it has a higher SR (32) and is pretty much immune to turning. A couple of the Maker's golems have relatively high SR (32) and many have SR 26. None of them has the level 0-9 spell level immunity that standard huge iron golems have. Any caster who can use a stack of Mord's scrolls won't find their spell resistance to be a big problem, though relying on scrolls or items for offensive spells may not be reliable.
The shield guardians in SoU are immune to spells of level 0-4, though there is a plot crutch for casters (or anyone else) who find them to be too much.
AAs tend to be very effective builds, particularly when coupled with an effective tank. I tend to prefer the rogue/AA route for their stealth and efficiency in dealing with non-sneak-immune mobs. Interestingly, I would say that HotU chapter 2 is tougher than chapter 3 because roughly half of the four main quests feature crit/sneak immune opponents. But, by the time the PC has access to Rizolvir and some gold, very little is left to challenge him, particularly if one exploits the dialog for the smith. Really, to make HotU more challenging, the first thing to do is to ignore Rizolvir as a smith...
But, keep in mind that there is little point in considering level 40 builds when dealing with the SoU and HotU match-ups. A player is unlikely to be higher than level 10 when he first encounters the SoU shield guardians and will probably be in his lower twenties when he hits the Maker's golems and the cult dracolich.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 24, 2012, 01:59:35 am
Got to the part in Act 2 where I am forced to solo for a bit ... and didn't crawl into a corner and cry like a little girl as per previous playthroughs. Having a very good time, guys! Things take a bit longer on sneak-attack immune stuff but I've gotten around most things just by packratting scrolls (which, let's face it, I always do this anyway) and using them intelligently. I've also gotten lucky with finding special arrows so I haven't run into any, "Seriously, I am 100% useless" moments.
It'd been so long I totally forgot Drogan died and what Heurodis actually was, hah.
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on November 24, 2012, 02:37:25 am
Where would that be? Can't figure out how to thaw out your stoned henchie? I don't ever remember leaving Deekin behind. He sulks if I do.Sarielle wrote...
Got to the part in Act 2 where I am forced to solo for a bit ...
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 24, 2012, 02:48:26 am
HipMaestro wrote...
Where would that be? Can't figure out how to thaw out your stoned henchie? I don't ever remember leaving Deekin behind. He sulks if I do.Sarielle wrote...
Got to the part in Act 2 where I am forced to solo for a bit ...
I didn't know you could thaw him out! I was all set to take Dorna the whole way but ... Deekin is so awesome, lol. I missed his narrating the action too much, even though I largely let him buff me and then make him stand in the back so he doesn't die.
I assumed after I got the slaver what he wanted I could get him thawed out. Like I said, it's been so long it's really like playing a new game for me, lol.
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on November 24, 2012, 05:51:33 am
Well, there are 2 ways. The "cheap" way is to use the same Ointment that was used to thaw out the sphinx in the Anauroch ruins (IIRC the shield guardian in one of the rooms drops it on death or maybe its just laying in a chest in that room. Memory fading here, sry.). There should be lots of charges left on it and any class can use it. The expensive way is to buy a scroll of Stone to Flesh from Ashnara, the slaver. There is no need to complete any quest to unstone your companion.Sarielle wrote...
I didn't know you could thaw him out! I was all set to take Dorna the whole way but ... Deekin is so awesome, lol. I missed his narrating the action too much, even though I largely let him buff me and then make him stand in the back so he doesn't die.
I assumed after I got the slaver what he wanted I could get him thawed out. Like I said, it's been so long it's really like playing a new game for me, lol.
Even though he sometimes picks an inopportune time to start asking questions, IMO Deekin's interplay is too entertaining to miss out on. Whoever wrote his dialogue had a great sense of humor. Also, Deekin is the only henchie that can accompany you through your entire journey through Underdark in the next expansion and will reflect on your companionship in the Undrentide campaign. I've found if you remove any melee weapon from his inventory and allow him only his xbow, he will tend to stay out of harm's way better. Also, if you fully exhaust all his spells by buffing, he won't try to buff further or use offensive spells during combat (a useful technique to remember should you rehire him in the next expansion). That blasted Iron Horn spell that he spams can keep knocking a Dexer prone when it is very inconvenient.
BTW, haven't really checked the details of the build suggestions very closely but I gathered you had some rogue mixed into it so I recommend HIGHLY that you elect Called Shot feat along the way. An AA will have no trouble hitting with Called Shots. Ranged sneaks can only be executed within 30 ft of a target so that means you'll need to slow down the mobs a bit and leg shots will do that for you. 30 ft is about 10 steps away from a foe which can get kinda hairy and you don't want to subject your archer to any unnecessary AoOs or losing your DEX AC. Just a suggestion. Played LOTS of archers in the campaigns.
Once I got past the tedious first chapter (tedious to me anyway), I really liked SoU as it seems to reflect a much better balance than any of the other campaigns (makes you be much more resourceful than the others IMO) and the closest to PnP gaming. Enjoy your revisit to Undrentide! I know you will.
Modifié par HipMaestro, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:05 .
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 24, 2012, 06:02:41 am
DOH dangit I didn't realize you could thaw out the Sphinx. Rassem frassem.
Post by: Legacy_HipMaestro on November 24, 2012, 06:10:11 am
Hmmm. That means you also missed out on getting the Power Stone then.Sarielle wrote...
DOH dangit I didn't realize you could thaw out the Sphinx. Rassem frassem.
Well, that's what replays are for, grabbing anything you missed the other time(s).
BTW, he's really really tough, but if you can kill him, the sphinx gives LOTS of XP.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on November 24, 2012, 08:37:01 pm
Yeah, I just looked through my bag and there are a heck of a lot of nifty items I'd forgotten I had. The Stone to Flesh item wasn't the only one. I'm good about keeping up with spell scrolls but the other random artifacts, not so much.
Anyways, yeah, I wish more games let you keep a companion like Deekin around for your whole epic adventure. Too many of them seem to get bored with their own characters and write them out for the sequel. Occasionally it just makes sense for them to move on. Morrigan in DA:O (she obviously had her own goals and motives all along) and Bishop in MotB (even without the chaotic stupid ending they gave him, I don't see him maintaining a long-term relationship with anybody, lol) make sense to not be available. But for the less independent companions -- particularly love interests -- it's always kind of a letdown. Awakening was much less fun for my warden who did the ritual and romanced Zev, for instance, because ... why isn't Zevran there with my gal again on this obviously dangerous adventure?
Anyways, I'm still waiting for a companion in any game to top Deekin. Hasn't happened yet. Even my evil playthroughs (I don't play sociopath types) get a kick out of Deekin, sort of like his Old Master did.
Post by: Legacy_Knight_Shield on December 01, 2012, 02:40:32 pm
Maybe BG/AA/Bard built on charisma.
Post by: Legacy_Sarielle on December 01, 2012, 07:30:32 pm
EDIT: reposted in HotU section since that's where it belongs.
Modifié par Sarielle, 01 décembre 2012 - 11:22 .